Soaring Cafe's Response to Recent Classified Ads Discussion

Dear RAS friends,

I have read with amazement and disappointment the responses to the recent thread "Soaring Community Consumer Warning". I've decided to start a new thread to provide my response to this issue, albeit with some trepidation. Please understand that I want to diffuse the issue, not fan the flames.

First, I am in complete agreement that Tim Mara provides an excellent service in both his Wings and Wheels Soaring Supplies business and his classified listings. I have personally purchased a number of items from Tim through the years and have always found him to responsive, knowledgeable and a pleasure to talk with. I will continue to do business with Tim in the future.

Next, I want to publicly apologize to Tim for "scraping" ads from his site when we started Soaring Cafe in 2011 and then again early last year. At that time, it was my opinion that copying classified ads from a free site and placing the ads on my free site would be helpful to the seller and the soaring community at large. I always followed up with an email to let the seller know that I had added their classified ad to Soaring Cafe and asked them to let me know if that was okay. Most appreciated it and some asked me to take the ad down.

It took me a while, perhaps a long while, to realize that "scraping" is considered inappropriate net etiquette, but we have stopped this practice altogether. Again, I want to apologize to Tim and to anyone whom we may have offended.

The other debate that is underway concerns the issue of a single vs. several classified ad listing sites. I understand Tim's position that one classified ad listing site would be best for the soaring community. It is my belief that multiple sites are helpful. As when selling a car or a house, many people find it useful to maximize exposure by using multiple sites. I have several rental properties and I use four different sites to advertise our properties for rent—and each site produces results.

I know there are two camps concerning the single vs. several sites issue. I have read the arguments and considered the merits of both sides. Clearly, we at the Cafe and Bill Palmer of GliderSource.com believe that multiple sites make the most sense. Evidently, many other people feel the same way since they are placing ads on both our sites.

I want to be clear that I fully support the efforts Bill Palmer has made with GliderSource.com and believe that he has an excellent site. Quite frankly, I believe he has the best, easiest to use, self-service site on the web for advertising your sailplane or instruments. We will continue to work on and improve the capability at the Cafe to meet the high bar he has set. Bill and I have talked from time to time about how we might work together to support both our sites and better serve the worldwide soaring community.

Finally, Sean pointed out that I have posted my JS1 on Wings and Wheels. This is true. My glider has been posted on SoaringCafe.com and GliderSource..com for a few months and I have received several inquiries from both ads. I decided to see if I could do better on Wings and Wheels. So, I sent Tim a note stating that I would like to list my glider on his site and that I understood his requirement to be exclusive with his site. He politely agreed to post my listing and I took my listing down from the other two sites, and that was fine with me. To date, the results are inconclusive regarding the comparative effectiveness of the three sites. I have received another inquiry but as of this writing, my glider has not sold. I am happy with my ad on Wings and Wheels, but I may choose to move the ad again.

Sincerely,
Bill Elliott
Publishing Editor
SoaringCafe.com

Good job Bill, I always knew Tim was a good guy.
I feel better now.
So what do we do with those 'other guys'?
The twins who started this sh.t?
B and S ?
I say we have them 'whacked'
R

"Scraping?" Boy, the things you learn on RAS. First Batteries, now scraping.
Hmmm

What policy? Where is this policy described? How do we know that it really exists?

Why is this supposed exclusivity policy NOT clearly stated on Wings & Wheels site along with the other clearly stated "instructions, terms and conditions?" Hmmm?

Nice try Bill but this your thread here basically a nice way of saying I don't like the policy and do not agree with it. We all can read through the valiant attempt at political correctness. Why not say what you mean?

You should immediately take your ad off Wings and Wheels and put RESTORE YOUR OWN AD to YOUR OWN SITE (Soaring Cafe) as well as all the other want ad sites (without exclusivity policies) to make a point. It is pretty weak to cower to Tim's demands and give in to him so publicly. It shows poor confidence in your own product frankly. It is Bizarre.

Stand up for your own outstanding work at Soaring Cafe (especially your own want ads section) and lead the charge away from Wings and Wheels and the ridiculous rumored exclusivity policy and "enforcement" practices.

Soaring cafe is and should be a far, far better place for selling gliders and W & W would ever hope to be. WE WILL SUPPORT YOU! We will support your more friendly and open policy of NO EXCLUSIVITY. The one that you just explained to us that you prefer and embrace personally.

If Tim chooses to cast you (or any more of us out) for not using his site for want ads THEN LET HIM! There are plenty of other people to do business with. His want ads policy (If it exists) is RIDICULOUS. We should NOT ACCEPT IT.

Sean
F2

Okay Sean,

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. But now you've proved
your a true asshole. I, and I'm sure many others, are done with you.

2C

On Apr 10, 10:09*am, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
What policy? *Where is this policy described? *How do we know that it really exists?

Why is this supposed exclusivity policy NOT clearly stated on Wings & Wheels site along with the other clearly stated "instructions, terms and conditions?" Hmmm?

Nice try Bill but this your thread here basically a nice way of saying I don't like the policy and do not agree with it. *We all can read through the valiant attempt at political correctness. *Why not say what you mean?

You should immediately take your ad off Wings and Wheels and put RESTORE YOUR OWN AD to YOUR OWN SITE (Soaring Cafe) as well as all the other want ad sites (without exclusivity policies) to make a point. *It is pretty weak to cower to Tim's demands and give in to him so publicly. *It shows poor confidence in your own product frankly. *It is Bizarre.

Stand up for your own outstanding work at Soaring Cafe (especially your own want ads section) and lead the charge away from Wings and Wheels and the ridiculous rumored exclusivity policy and "enforcement" practices.

Soaring cafe is and should be a far, far better place for selling gliders and W & W would ever hope to be. *WE WILL SUPPORT YOU! *We will support your more friendly and open policy of NO EXCLUSIVITY. *The one that you just explained to us that you prefer and embrace personally.

If Tim chooses to cast you (or any more of us out) for not using his site for want ads THEN LET HIM! *There are plenty of other people to do business with. *His want ads policy (If it exists) is RIDICULOUS. *We should NOT ACCEPT IT.

Sean
F2

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:09:56 AM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
What policy? Where is this policy described? How do we know that it really exists?



Why is this supposed exclusivity policy NOT clearly stated on Wings & Wheels site along with the other clearly stated "instructions, terms and conditions?" Hmmm?



Nice try Bill but this your thread here basically a nice way of saying I don't like the policy and do not agree with it. We all can read through the valiant attempt at political correctness. Why not say what you mean?



You should immediately take your ad off Wings and Wheels and put RESTORE YOUR OWN AD to YOUR OWN SITE (Soaring Cafe) as well as all the other want ad sites (without exclusivity policies) to make a point. It is pretty weak to cower to Tim's demands and give in to him so publicly. It shows poor confidence in your own product frankly. It is Bizarre.



Stand up for your own outstanding work at Soaring Cafe (especially your own want ads section) and lead the charge away from Wings and Wheels and the ridiculous rumored exclusivity policy and "enforcement" practices.



Soaring cafe is and should be a far, far better place for selling gliders and W & W would ever hope to be. WE WILL SUPPORT YOU! We will support your more friendly and open policy of NO EXCLUSIVITY. The one that you just explained to us that you prefer and embrace personally.



If Tim chooses to cast you (or any more of us out) for not using his site for want ads THEN LET HIM! There are plenty of other people to do business with. His want ads policy (If it exists) is RIDICULOUS. We should NOT ACCEPT IT.



Sean

F2

or maybe he's just trying to avoid making unnecessary make enemies in this sport that is supposed to be a "Gentleman's game." I thought Bill's post was tasteful and polite.

Bill's thoughtful posting WAS a "nice try", Sean, but not in the sarcastic way you meant it.

Among other things, he explained why he decided to experiment with moving his ad to Tim's W&W site. You just don't want to believe him. And your advice (more like a demand) to him doesn't even make sense. From one of your many over-the-top posts yesterday (this one from the original Consumer Warning thread):

"When I look for gliders for sale I check all of the popular sites. I imagine everyone else does too. Nobody in their right mind would put all their eggs in W&W. It would be a very big risk (and increasing every day) to simply depend on W&W to sell your glider, in my opinion."

So if buyers "check all of the popular sites", how are sellers who advertise on W&W putting all their eggs in one basket? This ignores, of course, the fact that W&W is arguably the best known such site and currently carries 2/3 of the ads out there. I suspect Bill wondered if SoaringCafe and GliderSource --while growing in popularity and functionally superior--still aren't as widely known (because they're newer) and that he might be missing some potential buyers familiar only with W&W. In that, Bill strikes me as someone who's more interested in results than in braying from a soapbox to feed his ego.

You claim to be an expert in this area. I'm sure you know there are numerous sites (and applications) with really cool features that users don't want, don't need, and/or simply don't know how to use. That often changes over time, of course. But if you need to sell your sailplane now, you're not as interested in what the landscape will look like in a year or two.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

The first of many examples of the many emails (and phone calls) I have been receiving from ex customers of wings and wheels. Some pretty well known pilots on this list... Virtually all of them will no longer do business of any kind with Tim.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Just so you know - it is all true

Date: April 7, 2013, 8:15 PM

When I was selling my glider last year, I got the same bull**** from Tim. Below is the email I received and my reply.

His final reply - "you haven't bought anything from me since 2004" My response - silence and I let my feet do the talking, I'll never deal with him again.

I need to keep quiet on this topic for now but I am getting closer and closer to chiming in as the attacks you have been receiving continue. So now you know this is not an isolated case of one guy with sour grapes who started the thread in the first place. He's been doing this for over a year!

--------------------------------------------------------------
Tim,

I have removed my ad from the Glider Source.com website, as I feel your want ads provide more exposure and you have left me with little choice.

HOWEVER, I think it is petty of you to take this position and it has taken me completely by surprise. Tim, you are a salesman and as such need to maintain good relations with your customers and this is going to alienate you from some of your loyal customers.

I have been a customer of yours for several years and will continue to do business with you when the need arises.

undisclosed

From: Tim Mara
To: ############################
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 5:45:05 PM
Subject: want ads

your ad is still listed on both sites so it will be removed from the W&W want-ads on 9-20-11 as I noted earlier
should you later decide you want to list on W&W want-ads please note you must wait at least 90 days once removed from the W&W site
regards
Tim Mara

undisclosed

Boy, that seems to have changed the tone of this thread, huh? :-)

Wrong again Chip (who's admitted to being biased for Tim Mara).

Tim didn't publish (and still hasn't) his exclusivity policy on his classified page. No mention whatsoever. Is he obligated to do so? Of course not. But is he smart to bully a long-term customer because he thinks he's anointed over all others (who actually happen to NOT compete with him)? I don't think so.

It was 100 days later, REPEAT: 100 days later, and 1 month after I posted on SoaringCafe, that he suddenly back-doored me and tried to push off and intimidate me with his issues regarding Soaring Cafe, along with his screed about how long he's been doing this free service and the others simply stealing from him.

I've never had a problem in 12 years of patronizing his store and spending my money with him. You can look back on RAS and see that I rarely post here, and certainly never a complaint. My posting headline was appropriate as I wanted to warn others what was in store for them if they simply wanted to increase the exposure of their classified efforts. It's well within protocol to exercise my consumer rights and free speech on a public forum to let others know there was a hidden, unpublished policy. An unpublished policy that I oppose and cannot understand why he never put it out front on his classified page. I don't let someone go Tony Soprano on me and change the rules to favor them. It's too bad no one else (and as you've read, there are plenty of others) sounded the warning. Believe me, I would have taken heed.

Obviously Tim's feeling the pressure of competition. But to hang up on a patron, who was trying to explain that he had not posted any such policy, and that my ad on Soaring Cafe was placed by me and not stolen by them... well he just added to his pressure. The only one who's hurting Tim Mara and Wings and Wheels is Tim Mara.

Oh and nice try Chip on the 65% market share comment. Two words: prove it.

Bob, let me respond to your last point first since the kindest spin I can put on it is that you're politely inquiring whether I might be mistaken:

Oh and nice try Chip on the 65% market share comment. Two words: prove it..

Two words, Bob: Read it.

As of 15 minutes ago:

Ads for used sailplanes (excludes motorgliders, trailers, wanted to buy, etc.)

Wings & Wheels 63 (67%) (excluding 5 "house" ads for the 304)
Soaring Cafe 23 (24%)
Glider Source 6 (6%)
Sean's Facebook site 2 (2%)
Total 94 (100%)

Tim's share has actually increased a few points since I FIRST POSTED THIS ANALYSIS 3 DAYS AGO. But there's still one ad listed on the latter three sites (guess whose ad, Bob!) so if you remove those dupes, Tim's share goes up to 68%. But I'm not sure which of your ads to remove because you've got your Genesis listed for two substantially different prices. Better check your ad on Soaring Cafe. Or maybe it's the price on the other three sites that's wrong. Gotta be careful to disclose this stuff, Bob.

Wrong again Chip (who's admitted to being biased for Tim Mara).

Wrong about what, Bob? I've freely admitted having done business with Tim in the past (as you have). But I thought your very first Consumer Warning posting was way out of line based on what you said. And nothing I've seen or learned since then has changed that perception. As to Tim's unpublished (but apparently not uncommunicated) policy, I've already agreed that he should eventually publish it. Just not in response to the heckling and baiting and harassment we've seen here.

So let me understand: you had your ad on Wings & Wheels for over 3 months, and simultaneously on Soaring Cafe for 1 month, and you're complaining because Tim wouldn't let you continue? And Tim went "Tony Soprano" on you? I thought he just hung up.

And if you'd known about the exclusivity policy ahead of time you would have "taken heed" and done...what? Shunned Wings & Wheels? Or not listed on Soaring Cafe? Seems to me you got the best of both worlds for a while. And Tim gave you a choice even then. And your only problem is that he didn't want to hear any more from you about doing it your way and hung up on you. I wasn't there but from how you tell your story, count me among the increasing chorus of those who've said they would have, too. Unbelievable!

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.