Soaring Community Consumer Warning

I'm all for multiple listings.

When I was in the market for my LAK-17a, I found the ad on Soaring Cafe.
Upon calling the seller, he told me that he'd removed the glider from the
market 6 months prior and thought all the ads had been taken down. I asked
him to keep my address should he change his mind, which he did. Had that ad
been taken down, I'd not have found my dream ship.

I'll keep my right/wrong opinions to myself on the main topic of this post,
but I agree with the original post concerning having the widest possible
dissemination of the advertisement.


"BobD" wrote in message
...
Knocking Tim and his business in really not justified.

Actually, I've spent a fair amount of money with him and his business. When
I and my partner bought said glider for sale (12 years ago), we outfitted
the entire panel save the ASI with his products. Also bought a parachute,
Prandl probe and other accessories; over $5,000. Over the years, a few more
hundred dollars has been spent with W&W for support goods.

This is how you treat a customer? In running my business, I don't state
anything different than the original agreement. I placed my ad in good faith
and in understanding WHAT I READ on his webpage. There was no statement of
policies AGAINST placing your ad on another website. He implied 3 months
later that SoaringCafe stole or copied over the ad and it was my obligation
to take it down. In trying to understand his reason and explain that I
placed it, he hung up on me as I was being civil in the discussion.

Your right--he can do whatever he pleases, including throwing in other
policies after the deal. It's his business. I just hope you aren't given a
switch deal and hung up on while trying to resolve it. Being a consumer and
loyal to our community of glider owners and participants, I find using my
consumer rights is justifiable in a public forum for actions like this. Hope
you're not trying to sell a glider right now.

I used to think that the Wings and Wheels site was "the" site for
soaring classifieds and everything else was - at best - its subset.

In light of the information found in this thread, it appears that the
other sites _are_ worth checking, as ads that are posted there are
unlikely to be found on Tim's site.

So, there's soaringcafe.com, glidersource.com... anything else?

Bart

Another installment in the great soaring classified ad wars. Who will
corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche
market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per
month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the
stakes are so small.

I agree, a business owner has a right to place whatever restrictions he likes on his services. A business decision of course, and as an owner of a service company (no, mot making MKIV's and QV's) one I understand . . . though one I'd personally make differently.

It's kind of like if a business owner said, "If you want to do business with me, you have to sign my 'exclusivity agreement' promising not to do business with anyone else for the products and services I offer". Does the owner have a right to do that? Sure! Good business? Not so much. One might get away with it for a while if they have an exclusive, single source product . .. . but it's not really in keeping with the principals that make capitalism such a great system. In the end, it's bound to aggravate some customers and maybe turn some away.

Better that customer loyalty be earned through surprisingly excellent service and good value. Coercion shouldn't have a place in this.

I imagine it's not easy making a living with an unseemly group like glider pilots as one's only customers, so I have deep appreciation for all the honest and hardworking businesses that strive to serve us while keeping their families fed at the same time. Gotta be a labor of love.

bumper
MKIV & QV

Bob,

Email me off group and I believe that I can give you some insight on this issue.

nov44bv (the usual stuff at the biggest search engine email service)


On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:
I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.



Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.



I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.



I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.



Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.



Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.



Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.



Bob DeLeon

Glider pilot and owner since 1997

3 months later he comes back to bully me into pulling my "for sale" ad off SoaringCafe instead of saying "Hey Bob, hope your ad on my site is getting you prospects. Keep me in mind for your new glider needs such as panel instruments, waxes etc." Now that won't happen, will it?

While I wouldn't purport to speak for Tim, I suspect he greeted this news with some relief. He doesn't allow you to use his free service the way you want to and the next thing is you post a "Consumer Warning" to the world. I can only imagine what might happen if you were unhappy with something you'd actually paid for.

Bumper has his finger on it. This is much like real estate "exclusive listings" (New York City) vs. "multiple listing services" (almost everywhere else). The difference is that unlike real estate, these guys don't make any money by simply listing a glider for sale. They count on the ads to bring people to their sites. And to promote good will and get their names out in the market (a mixed blessing in this case).

There is an argument to be made that a virtual multiple listing service (e.g., W&W with no restriction on listing a glider elsewhere) might get more traffic if pilots knew they could come to Tim's site and find everything. Of course, the reverse is true, too; if all gliders are also available on the other sites, he might lose traffic he now gets because anyone looking for a glider must check his site frequently.

Which business model to use is up to the vendor. Soaring is a tiny market and as expensive as these gadgets are, I suspect these guys aren't making big bucks selling them to us. Calling someone out because you didn't like a vendor's policy on a free service seems to be hitting below the belt.

In the past, I used to mull over a posting like your original one overnight and read it again in the morning. Frequently I edited it heavily or even deleted it entirely. Nevertheless, on a few occasions I was criticized for something I said; not so much my opinion but for the way I voiced it. When I realized I was out of line, I felt better admitting it, apologizing, and moving on. Pilots didn't seem to think any less of me for that. We've made a lot of noise about a minor episode but the impact to reputations could linger even after the flying weather kicks off. Just a thought.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Where is it all going to end, is the next step telling us we have to pay
an annual fee before we can be allowed to spend our money buying spares?

cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings
and Wheels.

Interestingly, the ad for C-GEST on W&W has been duplicated on SAC.ca for
months.

Not much concern for what goes on in Canada?
Cheers ...Jock

On 3/22/2013 6:30 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
Add my voice to that of Hank, Chip, Herb and Mark. Tim has worked
hard to make Wings & Wheels THE place to sell gliders, and he does it
to try to get more business. Duplicating your ad elsewhere is an
attack on his model. If you want the best exposure to sell your
glider, swallow your pride and make nice with Tim.

Tim still does not list his requirement the ad for your glider be
exclusively with him. The only requirement I see is this one, written in
red and underlined:

"I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer,
airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed."

Given the lack of warning about Tim's requirements for exclusivity (and
perhaps letting his business interests interfere with his civility), I
suggest he immediately and prominently post those requirements, then
contact BobD with something like this: "My bad for not informing you of
the situation. I'll be glad to repost your ad until you sell your
glider. Please let me know at your convenience."

Should Tim make such an offer, I hope BobD will accept it graciously,
and allow the ad to be reposted.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Saturday, March 23, 2013 1:01:51 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 3/22/2013 6:30 AM, John Carlyle wrote:

Add my voice to that of Hank, Chip, Herb and Mark. Tim has worked

hard to make Wings & Wheels THE place to sell gliders, and he does it

to try to get more business. Duplicating your ad elsewhere is an

attack on his model. If you want the best exposure to sell your

glider, swallow your pride and make nice with Tim.



Tim still does not list his requirement the ad for your glider be

exclusively with him. The only requirement I see is this one, written in

red and underlined:



"I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer,

airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed."



Given the lack of warning about Tim's requirements for exclusivity (and

perhaps letting his business interests interfere with his civility), I

suggest he immediately and prominently post those requirements, then

contact BobD with something like this: "My bad for not informing you of

the situation. I'll be glad to repost your ad until you sell your

glider. Please let me know at your convenience."



Should Tim make such an offer, I hope BobD will accept it graciously,

and allow the ad to be reposted.



--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email me)

Eric: I would gladly do so.

No Chip, I'm not hitting below the belt. Hanging up on me when I was trying to have an understanding led to this. Trying to sell my glider and NOT informing me before hand until well after I posted on SoaringCafe hurts the entire community in spite of his store offerings and past services. I understand his right to policy, but read Eric's post.