Soaring Community Consumer Warning

Bill,

While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...

Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"

Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. So you likely violated Tim's terms of service. Sorry, but true.

2C


I am the developer of Glidersource.com



I started working on this platform about two years ago at the urging of some others. We saw the W&W ad pages (10 pages of unsorted, center-justified, one photo, limited info ads), and other classified sites at the time as something that could be vastly improved upon.



Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc., provided moral support (but no other affiliation) and replaced his own manually-operated classified effort with links to GliderSource.com.



In the early days, I (regretfully) wrote to some of the folks advertising their aircraft there to let them know of an ADDITIONAL source to list, that would allow more text, more photos, embedded video, contact feature, hit counter, search capabilities, 24/7 self-post & edit, and other modern web goodies.

I got a lot of thank you's and ONE objection, in Sept of '11.



I've never "scrapped" ads of of his site, and I can't speak about any accusations that anyone else has either. The worst I did was send some sellers a single email. Considering the email traffic these days, it seemed pretty harmless.



Tim responded by creating or enforcing his W&W-Only policy (as mentioned, it's still not possible to tell he has such a policy without testing the waters).

Tim emailed the folks who posted their ad in both places and, well, let them know that they won't be in two places any more. Tim did not contact me, but when a dozen sailplanes fell off my site in one day and I made inquiries why, it didn't take long for someone to forward me the email that Tim sent to him. At that I stopped the direct-email campaign and apologized, including to Tim.



I contacted Tim hoping we soaring-community folks could all "play nice" together, and even offered to do some web programming to help his site be more user and owner friendly. ( Tim told me he spends "hundreds of hours" on his classified ads. That's because he gets the photos by email, has to crop and resize, create the copy, post in a web page and manually do all this work rotating his 10 or more classified ad pages around. All that is automatic on my site.) Tim declined the offer.



Tim obviously has a vested interest in keeping his want ads as THE go-to place, as the classified site is at the doorstep to his store. That's fine, how could anyone object to that? I think what people object to is that the free market is not part of that plan, since his advertisers are constrained from posting on places Tim doesn't like. Ever heard of a newspaper the won't let you advertise on craigslist too?



I've had more than one person tell me first hand that when posting an glider ad on W&W Tim delayed posting the ad a few days while offering the seller less himself. Now, I can't swear that happened, because it didn't happen to me directly, but why would someone make that up?



My interest was to for there to be a classified ad site that was highly functional, easy to use, and that users could post ANYTHING soaring related. Last I checked W&W was aircraft and parts only. As of today GliderSource.com has 38 ads for instruments, 7 for soaring equipment, and a smattering in other categories, including sailplanes and motorgliders, and 9 wanted ads.



Knowing of Tim's policy, I felt it fair to advise my potential advertisers, before they go to the effort to create an ad only to have it shot down by T.M. So, without mentioning W&W, since that might seem like I was talking bad about it, I have the following notice on my home page:

- - - - -

What if I already have my item listed on another site?



Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one. All soaring related ads are welcome here. But, a prominent glider classified provider does not appreciate this effort for glider and motorglider ads. Check with your current ad carrier to see if he requires exclusive handling of your ad. I think competition improves the market. What do you think?

- - - -



I'm still hoping that Tim will make the W&W ads easier to use (fewer pages, allow more info, more photos photos, sorted, search function, etc.) because he does have more sailplane ads than anywhere else. But it seems to me that as long as he's the 800 pound gorilla in the room, he doesn't feel he needs to improve his website to compete. (remember, I even offered to help him do it - I obviously have the software skills to do so).





In conclusion, it's hard to argue with Liam's posting:

"Who will corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche

market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per

month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the

stakes are so small."

Chip I like Tim he always seem to have the items I need At the price I need and ships them when I need. I'll just have to remember if I ever sell my DG 600 I'll just have to list it on multiple sites using multiple names Different phone numbers different email addresses, I might even have to wear a disguise. I guess the moral of the story is if you own a website and you're letting people list gliders for free I guess you can set your own rules.

As far as the Sage vario in 2004? I don't remember that one, That was quite a few brain cells ago, If I was upset over something I guess I got glad again. If you know me you'll know that I'm a very cynical and sarcastic person, I own a trucking company and deal with about a dozen truck drivers, And I can be a real pain in the ass so sometimes I become very cynical and sarcastic. I get to hear all the whining one can stand, The difference between a two-year-old and a truck driver is........... The two-year-old eventually quits crying.
Waaaaaaaaaaaa I'm glad I'm now management Or am I?

Okay I'm done

Russ

On 3/29/2013 6:10 PM, Kevin Christner wrote:
Bill,

While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made
such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by
e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...

Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for
other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"

Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. So you
likely violated Tim's terms of service. Sorry, but true.

I disagree. Offering free ads to people who have posted an ad on what
appears to be a "free ad" website isn't brokering, because the host does
not get involved in the transaction - the host is just a publisher. It's
not reselling, either, as the host does not own the advertised glider in
any way - again, it's just publishing, like newspapers publish ads but
are not brokering or reselling.

By "appears to be a free ad website", I mean there was no apparent quid
pro quo between W&W and person advertising their glider; specifically,
W&W did not and _still_ does not state exclusivity is a condition for
hosting the ad. In fact, this sentence from the W&W website says there
is no compensation for the service.

"As always, there is never any charge for the listing and Wings & Wheels
does not request nor will accept any commission or compensation for this
service."

Personally, I believe requiring exclusivity _is_ compensation for the
service. So, while I believe BobD overreacted with his posting, I think
Tim triggered the issue by not making his policy clear at the start, and
is setting himself up for a repeat by still not listing his policy.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Kevin,
Yeah, that's why I apologized and haven't emailed Tim's clients in over 18 months.

Bill

On Friday, March 29, 2013 6:10:23 PM UTC-7, Kevin Christner wrote:
Bill,



While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...



Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"



Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. So you likely violated Tim's terms of service. Sorry, but true.



2C





I am the developer of Glidersource.com







I started working on this platform about two years ago at the urging of some others. We saw the W&W ad pages (10 pages of unsorted, center-justified, one photo, limited info ads), and other classified sites at the time as something that could be vastly improved upon.







Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc., provided moral support (but no other affiliation) and replaced his own manually-operated classified effort with links to GliderSource.com.







In the early days, I (regretfully) wrote to some of the folks advertising their aircraft there to let them know of an ADDITIONAL source to list, that would allow more text, more photos, embedded video, contact feature, hit counter, search capabilities, 24/7 self-post & edit, and other modern web goodies.



I got a lot of thank you's and ONE objection, in Sept of '11.







I've never "scrapped" ads of of his site, and I can't speak about any accusations that anyone else has either. The worst I did was send some sellers a single email. Considering the email traffic these days, it seemed pretty harmless.







Tim responded by creating or enforcing his W&W-Only policy (as mentioned, it's still not possible to tell he has such a policy without testing the waters).



Tim emailed the folks who posted their ad in both places and, well, let them know that they won't be in two places any more. Tim did not contact me, but when a dozen sailplanes fell off my site in one day and I made inquiries why, it didn't take long for someone to forward me the email that Tim sent to him. At that I stopped the direct-email campaign and apologized, including to Tim.







I contacted Tim hoping we soaring-community folks could all "play nice" together, and even offered to do some web programming to help his site be more user and owner friendly. ( Tim told me he spends "hundreds of hours" on his classified ads. That's because he gets the photos by email, has to crop and resize, create the copy, post in a web page and manually do all this work rotating his 10 or more classified ad pages around. All that is automatic on my site.) Tim declined the offer.







Tim obviously has a vested interest in keeping his want ads as THE go-to place, as the classified site is at the doorstep to his store. That's fine, how could anyone object to that? I think what people object to is that the free market is not part of that plan, since his advertisers are constrained from posting on places Tim doesn't like. Ever heard of a newspaper the won't let you advertise on craigslist too?







I've had more than one person tell me first hand that when posting an glider ad on W&W Tim delayed posting the ad a few days while offering the seller less himself. Now, I can't swear that happened, because it didn't happen to me directly, but why would someone make that up?







My interest was to for there to be a classified ad site that was highly functional, easy to use, and that users could post ANYTHING soaring related. Last I checked W&W was aircraft and parts only. As of today GliderSource.com has 38 ads for instruments, 7 for soaring equipment, and a smattering in other categories, including sailplanes and motorgliders, and 9 wanted ads.







Knowing of Tim's policy, I felt it fair to advise my potential advertisers, before they go to the effort to create an ad only to have it shot down by T.M. So, without mentioning W&W, since that might seem like I was talking bad about it, I have the following notice on my home page:



- - - - -



What if I already have my item listed on another site?







Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one. All soaring related ads are welcome here. But, a prominent glider classified provider does not appreciate this effort for glider and motorglider ads. Check with your current ad carrier to see if he requires exclusive handling of your ad. I think competition improves the market. What do you think?



- - - -







I'm still hoping that Tim will make the W&W ads easier to use (fewer pages, allow more info, more photos photos, sorted, search function, etc.) because he does have more sailplane ads than anywhere else. But it seems to me that as long as he's the 800 pound gorilla in the room, he doesn't feel he needs to improve his website to compete. (remember, I even offered to help him do it - I obviously have the software skills to do so).











In conclusion, it's hard to argue with Liam's posting:



"Who will corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche



market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per



month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the



stakes are so small."

Kevin,

I didn't (and still don't) consider Glidersource.com to be an aircraft dealer, Broker, Reseller, or Commercial vendor. Doesn't much matter what the legal interpretation of it is, I was trying to help folks sell their gliders not **** them off, so I apologized and haven't emailed Tim's clients in over 18 months.

Aircraft dealer? definitely not.

Broker? "A broker is an individual or party (brokerage firm) that arranges transactions between a buyer and a seller, and gets a commission when the deal is executed. A broker who also acts as a seller or as a buyer becomes a principal party to the deal." Nope not quite. I don't arrange a transaction or collect a commission.

To be a reseller, I'd have to buy each item and then resell it. Obviously not what I'm doing.

Commercial vendor? I'm not selling anything, so not that either.

Glider pilot and hobby web developer trying to make a kick-ass classified web site we can all enjoy? Oh, yeah, that's the one!

Bill


On Friday, March 29, 2013 6:10:23 PM UTC-7, Kevin Christner wrote:
Bill,



While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...



Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"



Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. So you likely violated Tim's terms of service. Sorry, but true.



2C





I am the developer of Glidersource.com







I started working on this platform about two years ago at the urging of some others. We saw the W&W ad pages (10 pages of unsorted, center-justified, one photo, limited info ads), and other classified sites at the time as something that could be vastly improved upon.







Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc., provided moral support (but no other affiliation) and replaced his own manually-operated classified effort with links to GliderSource.com.







In the early days, I (regretfully) wrote to some of the folks advertising their aircraft there to let them know of an ADDITIONAL source to list, that would allow more text, more photos, embedded video, contact feature, hit counter, search capabilities, 24/7 self-post & edit, and other modern web goodies.



I got a lot of thank you's and ONE objection, in Sept of '11.







I've never "scrapped" ads of of his site, and I can't speak about any accusations that anyone else has either. The worst I did was send some sellers a single email. Considering the email traffic these days, it seemed pretty harmless.







Tim responded by creating or enforcing his W&W-Only policy (as mentioned, it's still not possible to tell he has such a policy without testing the waters).



Tim emailed the folks who posted their ad in both places and, well, let them know that they won't be in two places any more. Tim did not contact me, but when a dozen sailplanes fell off my site in one day and I made inquiries why, it didn't take long for someone to forward me the email that Tim sent to him. At that I stopped the direct-email campaign and apologized, including to Tim.







I contacted Tim hoping we soaring-community folks could all "play nice" together, and even offered to do some web programming to help his site be more user and owner friendly. ( Tim told me he spends "hundreds of hours" on his classified ads. That's because he gets the photos by email, has to crop and resize, create the copy, post in a web page and manually do all this work rotating his 10 or more classified ad pages around. All that is automatic on my site.) Tim declined the offer.







Tim obviously has a vested interest in keeping his want ads as THE go-to place, as the classified site is at the doorstep to his store. That's fine, how could anyone object to that? I think what people object to is that the free market is not part of that plan, since his advertisers are constrained from posting on places Tim doesn't like. Ever heard of a newspaper the won't let you advertise on craigslist too?







I've had more than one person tell me first hand that when posting an glider ad on W&W Tim delayed posting the ad a few days while offering the seller less himself. Now, I can't swear that happened, because it didn't happen to me directly, but why would someone make that up?







My interest was to for there to be a classified ad site that was highly functional, easy to use, and that users could post ANYTHING soaring related. Last I checked W&W was aircraft and parts only. As of today GliderSource.com has 38 ads for instruments, 7 for soaring equipment, and a smattering in other categories, including sailplanes and motorgliders, and 9 wanted ads.







Knowing of Tim's policy, I felt it fair to advise my potential advertisers, before they go to the effort to create an ad only to have it shot down by T.M. So, without mentioning W&W, since that might seem like I was talking bad about it, I have the following notice on my home page:



- - - - -



What if I already have my item listed on another site?







Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one. All soaring related ads are welcome here. But, a prominent glider classified provider does not appreciate this effort for glider and motorglider ads. Check with your current ad carrier to see if he requires exclusive handling of your ad. I think competition improves the market. What do you think?



- - - -







I'm still hoping that Tim will make the W&W ads easier to use (fewer pages, allow more info, more photos photos, sorted, search function, etc.) because he does have more sailplane ads than anywhere else. But it seems to me that as long as he's the 800 pound gorilla in the room, he doesn't feel he needs to improve his website to compete. (remember, I even offered to help him do it - I obviously have the software skills to do so).











In conclusion, it's hard to argue with Liam's posting:



"Who will corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche



market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per



month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the



stakes are so small."

On Mar 30, 2:30*am, Bill Palmer wrote:
Kevin,

I didn't (and still don't) consider Glidersource.com to be an aircraft dealer, Broker, Reseller, or Commercial vendor. Doesn't much matter what the legal interpretation of it is, I was trying to help folks sell their gliders not **** them off, so I apologized and haven't emailed Tim's clients in over 18 months.

Aircraft dealer? definitely not.

Broker? "A broker is an individual or party (brokerage firm) that arranges transactions between a buyer and a seller, and gets a commission when the deal is executed. A broker who also acts as a seller or as a buyer becomes a principal party to the deal." Nope not quite. I don't arrange a transaction or collect a commission.

To be a reseller, I'd have to buy each item and then resell it. Obviously not what I'm doing.

Commercial vendor? I'm not selling anything, so not that either.

Glider pilot and hobby web developer trying to make a kick-ass classified web site we can all enjoy? *Oh, yeah, that's the one!

Bill







On Friday, March 29, 2013 6:10:23 PM UTC-7, Kevin Christner wrote:
Bill,

While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...

Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"

Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. *So you likely violated Tim's terms of service. *Sorry, but true.

2C

I am the developer of Glidersource.com

I started working on this platform about two years ago at the urging of some others. We saw the W&W ad pages (10 pages of unsorted, center-justified, one photo, limited info ads), and other classified sites at the time as something that could be vastly improved upon.

Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc., provided moral support (but no other affiliation) and replaced his own manually-operated classified effort with links to GliderSource.com.

In the early days, I (regretfully) wrote to some of the folks advertising their aircraft there to let them know of an ADDITIONAL source to list, that would allow more text, more photos, embedded video, contact feature, hit counter, search capabilities, 24/7 self-post & edit, and other modern web goodies.

I got a lot of thank you's and ONE objection, in Sept of '11.

I've never "scrapped" ads of of his site, and I can't speak about any accusations that anyone else has either. The worst I did was send some sellers a single email. Considering the email traffic these days, it seemed pretty harmless.

Tim responded by creating or enforcing his W&W-Only policy (as mentioned, it's still not possible to tell he has such a policy without testing the waters).

Tim emailed the folks who posted their ad in both places and, well, let them know that they won't be in two places any more. *Tim did not contact me, but when a dozen sailplanes fell off my site in one day and I made inquiries why, it didn't take long for someone to forward me the email that Tim sent to him. At that I stopped the direct-email campaign and apologized, including to Tim.

I contacted Tim hoping we soaring-community folks could all "play nice" together, and even offered to do some web programming to help his site be more user and owner friendly. ( Tim told me he spends "hundreds of hours" on his classified ads. That's because he gets the photos by email, has to crop and resize, create the copy, post in a web page and manually do all this work rotating his 10 or more classified ad pages around. All that is automatic on my site.) Tim declined the offer.

Tim obviously has a vested interest in keeping his want ads as THE go-to place, as the classified site is at the doorstep to his store. That's fine, how could anyone object to that? I think what people object to is that the free market is not part of that plan, since his advertisers are constrained from posting on places Tim doesn't like. Ever heard of a newspaper the won't let you advertise on craigslist too?

I've had more than one person tell me first hand that when posting an glider ad on W&W Tim delayed posting the ad a few days while offering the seller less himself. *Now, I can't swear that happened, because it didn't happen to me directly, but why would someone make that up?

My interest was to for there to be a classified ad site that was highly functional, easy to use, and that users could post ANYTHING soaring related. * *Last I checked W&W *was aircraft and parts only. *As of today GliderSource.com has 38 ads for instruments, 7 for soaring equipment, and a smattering in other categories, including sailplanes and motorgliders, and 9 wanted ads.

Knowing of Tim's policy, I felt it fair to advise my potential advertisers, before they go to the effort to create an ad only to have it shot down by T.M. *So, without mentioning W&W, since that might seem like I was talking bad about it, I have the following notice on my home page:

- - - - -

What if I already have my item listed on another site?

Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one. All soaring related ads are welcome here. But, a prominent glider classified provider does not appreciate this effort for glider and motorglider ads. Check with your current ad carrier to see if he requires exclusive handling of your ad. I think competition improves the market.. What do you think?

*- - - -

I'm still hoping that Tim will make the W&W ads easier to use (fewer pages, allow more info, more photos photos, sorted, search function, etc.) because he does have more sailplane ads than anywhere else. But it seems to me that as long as he's the 800 pound gorilla in the room, he doesn't feel he needs to improve his website to compete. (remember, I even offered to help him do it - I obviously have the software skills to do so).

In conclusion, it's hard to argue with Liam's posting:

"Who will corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche

market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per

month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the

stakes are so small."

Bill, what about putting a big Wing and Wheels add on you website for
free. Maybe that will solve a problem.

I agree Tim has the right to set his own rules, but I think the
community would benefit from a modern classified site like Bill's.

I buy from Tim not because I visit his classified site. I buy from him
because he has the best selection of things I need.

I sold my glider through his site. Thank you Tim. I sold my 302
through Bill's site. Thank you Bill. I would keep buying from Tim even
if I placed my add somewhere else simply because Tim always has things
I need. I mean ALWAYS.

I think the status quo is fine. Tim's approach is a bit dated, but it worked well for me.

But times are changing and "Information wants to be free".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informa...nts_to_be_free

It is just a matter of time before some young blood takes up soaring, evaluates the status quo, and with absolutely no compunction decides to set up a master compilation website on an offshore server.

That website will scrape ALL of the ads for gliders from ALL of the sites that accept ads. It will catch on fast because it will be the definitive master list of gliders for sale, and it will have a lot of the modern features that we see on a site like glidersource.com

That website will not accept ads from sellers, so it will not be possible to punish someone for posting. There may be legal IP issues, but those are rather difficult to enforce, and easy to sidestep. To create a cash flow to cover expenses, that website will accept banner ads selected by Google. People buying gliders have disposable income and they are good prospects for a variety of high priced products.

I'm old fashioned about intellectual property and so I would never do this, but you know... kids these days.

If the person behind Glidersource had not made the mistakes of 1)accepting ads and 2)personally identifying himself, we would already be seeing this master list of gliders for sale.

Wow! With barely 24 hours to go, "Soaring Community Consumer Warning" appears to be the most popular RAS posting in the month of March, with nearly 2,000 views! This proves once again that soaring may be minuscule compared to the real world but our controversies are truly world class.

There are two other threads with postings that also occurred this month (albeit on 1 March) but they both began well befo "Turn coordinator? How dare they!" (2,000+ views) and, of course, "FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition" with an astounding 4,648 views!

I recall a time when the only real way of reaching the soaring community in this country was by paying for a classified ad in Soaring magazine--which required mailing (via the post) or electronically communicating (via a land line phone call to the SSA's receptionist -- hahaha) the ad copy 45 days or more in advance. Today you can list or accept a glider ad one day and wake up the next morning having been demonized and/or defended several times over on this forum.

It seems clear there's little money to be made in classified ads now. Entrepreneurs are using free ads to entice pilots to existing sites that sell soaring equipment or to build traffic for new sites, the owners of which presumably are motivated, in addition to public service, by at least the dream of someday monetizing the eyeballs.

I'll attempt to close this out with a few thoughts. If you're still reading this thread, obviously brevity isn't one of your criteria so I won't bother to apologize for carrying on.

1. When you have a successful business and a respected reputation, you're more likely to be able to impose terms and conditions on pilots who wish to list their gliders on your site.

2. Having a master "compiled list" of all glider ads would be pretty cool for those shopping for a used sailplane. Those trying to build such as list face at least three obstacles: (1) push back from the successful incumbents; (2) reluctance by pilots to jeopardize their ability to list on what's perceived to be the most popular site(s); and (3) some pesky legal issues.

To the latter point, "screen scraping" (lifting ads from one site to post on another) has been the subject of much legal skirmishing in the U.S. and abroad (Southwest Airlines has been particularly aggressive). There's no clear rule of thumb but it's my impression, ironically, that scraping ads from a site that requires exclusivity is treading on thinner ice.

3. Several have used the term "contract". I'm not a lawyer but the primary issue appears to be whether there's an agreement for the pilot to give up the right to list elsewhere in exchange for being allowed to list on the most popular site. If it were ever litigated, that would probably be considered compensation. Otherwise, there's no real contract here. You can complain that you were damaged by not being able to list your glider for free but you won't get much sympathy from the courts...or anyone else here, apparently.. Tough crowd.

4. Much has been made of Tim Mara's not disclosing his policy of requiring exclusivity (if, in fact, that is the case universally or in isolated cases). I'm speculating but among other reasons may be that it might look a little heavy handed (although I think most pilots would understand) and that it does tend to create a contractual relationship wherein Tim takes on certain obligations as well: e.g., that the site will be up at all times, that the ads will read as communicated to him, that the photos will be displayed attractively, and that ads will not be positioned badly (e.g., too deep in the listings, in the wrong category, or directly next to an identical glider being sold for much less money). If this were the music business, there'd be lawyers swarming all over us. Instead, the only intense scrutiny seems to be from those who detect a conspiracy within the Rules Committee to disenfranchise the Club Class or owners of iPhones and the like.

5. There are some IP (intellectual property) issues. I'm not an expert here, either, but to the extent that a site owner puts some time and effort into building a classified area and then creates/edits the ads in it, he/she probably has some IP rights that would be infringed upon by anyone attempting to use those ads elsewhere.

6. Speaking of creating and editing ads, I noted with interest the bafflement of one earnest software developer that Tim spurned his offer of free software consulting to improve the W&W site. To me, this is a classic example of an IT guy genuinely wanting to "help" the business guy by taking a well-understood, easily maintained application that does the job pretty well and replacing it with a site that, while demonstrably better, the user can no longer maintain without the IT's guy's help. Big businesses long ago admitted defeat and turned over their systems to IT specialists. The reaction of soaring equipment site owners who currently maintain them personally or with a trusted friend or family member (or teenager) aren't necessarily ready to change, especially when the help is offered by someone who's just created a competitive site. And I can't blame them. Nor should you, Bill.

7. There's lots of room for creative solutions to the problems people have raised. Tim could cut a deal with the other site owners. Or he could make sure pilots had to come to his site to get the best info on a glider, by requiring a click thru for the price or full info or by offering a small promotional item with gliders purchased off his site (e.g., a new ClearNav flight computer with CNv vario with all the accessories). Perhaps out of the nearly 2,000 times this thread has been viewed will come a happy one that pleases everyone. Hey, it could happen!

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Wow. This thread is what I call "circling the wagons."

No mention of such a policy is mentioned on the website. It is just very poor business to hang up on a customer and I find it hilarious how the "regulars" come to the aid of their dear friend so blatantly and dramatically. It almost brought a tear to my eye hearing the stories. if you listen to it with some sappy music you'll be balling your eyes out.

Obviously Tim was highly unpleasant to deal with if the result was this thread.

Tim is a nice guy (and always has been to me) but IMO he is wrong for treating a customer(s?) so poorly when there is no stated policy stated on his website. Clearly he does not want to publicize this policy or he would do so. If something is so important to him that he would pull an ad it then should be clearly stated on his website for all to see.

Wings and Wheels has been popular for want ads but it is not the only choice. But sure he can do whatever he wants...

Overall, I would say this thread has, unfortunately, been a bit damaging. Obviously not to the regulars, but maybe to the softer spoken folks who do not know the people involved. I don't think many customers want to be told post with me only or ill hammer you. Soaring cafe is not competitive. The other one must be a threat if he is so concerned as to take such drastic action and ruin his relationship with a customer and likely many others...

Tim...here is a funny clip Ill call "lighten up Francis!" Just sayin... ;-)

http://youtu.be/0OnpkDWbeJs

I am going to destroy all of these want ads sites in 1 week. Here it goes...