Soaring Community Consumer Warning

At 21:37 02 April 2013, Craig R. wrote:

You may dislike what happened at W&W, but let's prioritize a bit on
getting upset. This example is small potatoes.

You are right, 20 years ago this would have been small potatoes. Like it or
not we are in an age when what happens can be communicated to literally
millions of people very easily.You do not have to arouse media interest you
just post something on the internet.
Now I live in the UK so I have never ever had any contact with Wings and
Wheels and now I am never likely to. At best the proprietor comes over as
someone more concerned with himself than his customers and the number of
people that know this increases exponetially. Agree most of them won't care
a jot but a small business, and W&W is a small business, relies on cash
flow and even the loss of a few customers can be serious.
Of course someone has the right to run their business how they see fit but
they have to appreciate that upsetting one customer does not mean that just
that one customer knows any more.

Originally Posted by Don Johnstone[_4_]

At 21:37 02 April 2013, Craig R. wrote:

You may dislike what happened at W&W, but let's prioritize a bit on
getting upset. This example is small potatoes.

At best the proprietor comes over as someone more concerned with himself than his customers and the number of people that know this increases exponetially. Agree most of them won't care a jot but a small business, and W&W is a small business, relies on cash flow and even the loss of a few customers can be serious.
Of course someone has the right to run their business how they see fit but
they have to appreciate that upsetting one customer does not mean that just
that one customer knows any more.

Well, if you haven't noticed many other posts, most folks here have had excellent service from Tim. I've dealt with him many times and he has always been informative prompt and helpful. And even when I screwed up my PNA, he helped me get it back to factory settings at no charge. I appreciate his responses to my questions, and he has always been an excellent businessman in my book, including offering discounts when I hadn't asked. Thanks Tim.

If that matters at all...

Cheers me old,
Squeak

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:
I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.



Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.



I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.



I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.



Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.



Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.



Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.



Bob DeLeon

Glider pilot and owner since 1997

In my business, I try to keep my clients happy just like re-sellers do. Every now and then I get a "client from hell" who is never happy whatever you do for them. I've "fired" several such customers over the years and don't blame Tim for doing the same.

Mike

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:
I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.



Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.



I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.



I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.



Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.



Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.



Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.



Bob DeLeon

Glider pilot and owner since 1997

Folks. This is getting crazy and way out of hand to say the least. Tim has been providing a valuable FREE service to the soaring community for many years. If he profits incidentally than so be it. It is his website, his efforts, he sets the policy and if any one of us don't like it than one should consider going elsewhere. As they say; don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
6PK

So funny...amusing but a little sad.

Lets review, shall we?

Tim is a knowledgeable glider guy. Great.

Tim probably screwed with the wrong guy regarding his secret policy and I can understand an upset reaction from this customer. I also personally believe that Tim (clearly upset by the growth of competitive sites) was also upset by the fact that the customers reaction to Tim's demands was correct regarding absolutely no stated policy and felt it was wrong to threaten to remove his ad as a customer and simply as a user of W&W.

Tim's customer was so bothered by the treatment (hang up was probably true) he posted on RAS. He has some support. Regardless of details the policy and the manner of informing this guy was very, very poor at best.

Friends of Tim Mara circled wagons around him on this thread and likely elsewhere, looking ridiculously bias and completely failing to admit the slightest chance of error by Tim. The wagoneers insult anyone who agreed Tim may be at fault subtlety and nastily in some cases. I for one laughed at it as I usually do, but the unreasonable defense of this event likely further injured Tim's reputation for those watching from the sidelines as any reasonable person agrees there is something odd here about the policy and the incident. The defense was too much. Tim is certainly not innocent.

Tim has essentially been "hiding under his desk" since this has begun. Friends are acting as proxies apparently and rigorously defending some policy that we have no idea that it actually exists because Tim has not made any statements. Head proxy tries to claim Tim is to classy to comment. Please.... Tim's a big boy. He can defend himself. Can he not?

Damage short and long term to W&W is debatable, but there definitely is damage. A fact of the electronic age. A fact of negative reviews. Proxies pretend their is no chance of damage from this incident.

We appear to agree that Tim's site is fairly outdated, and many other choices are available to pilots who are looking to sell their gliders. Competition is good for consumers last I checked. Promoting a monopoly on glider want ads questionable but expected from the proxies.

Tim should apologize, state his policy here on RAS and on his website and it will be over in weeks. If he does not this problem will linger...

I want to see other glider want ad sites be successful. I do not like the idea of being EXECTED (wink, wink) to only use someone's site under some mysterious unstated terms and conditions. This supposed exclusivity policy of Wings and Wheels is not stated anywhere on the site. This is PURE FACT.

How do we really know if this IS or IS NOT Tim's Wings and Wheels Want Ad's policy?

Only his proxies and circled wagons pals have stated this is a policy after the customer posted this thread. But how do we really know what is fact? Why should we believe anything the proxies say? How do they really know this policy exists? Tim has not confirmed or denied anything and the website still says absolutely nothing about it. Has Tim told them to say this on this thread (while hiding under the desk) or are they just assuming it to be the case? Have they talked to Tim?

The facts are that we have not heard JACK-SQUAT from TIM and NOTHING ABOUT SUCH A POLICY IS STATED ON TIM'S (only show in town, dominant, amazing) WEBSITE aka WINGS AND WHEELS.

So what are we customers supposed to believe Tim? Must we, if we place an ad on your (only show in town ) website (according to your proxies), assume that you will then pull it down if you find our ad is also listed on any other soaring website????? (which does not matter as your site is the only game in town). Will you call us up if you find our ad in trade a plane or on the SSA want ads? Facebook Want Ads. Where is the line drawn? Are you seriously admiting this is you policy ;-) ?

What if I just announce it on my personal Facebook bag? Does this violate your unstated proxy claimed policy? What about an ad in a local paper? Violation?

What exactly is the policy? Is it true or not? Tim?

If wings and wheels is the only game in town, why is Tim apparently so worried and so threatened by other want ad sites or methods?

Its all just so bad. I'm sorry. In my opinion the whole idea of expecting absolute exclusivity without openly stating such a draconian business policy on the website conditions is ridiculous.

You cannot have it both ways Tim. Which is it? Please make a statement, on your site or here, so we can know the facts and move on.

It's your business and you can certainly do whatever you want. But what is it, exactly, that you are doing?

Thanks,

Sean
F2

On Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:58:19 AM UTC-4, 6PK wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:

I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.







Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.







I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.







I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.







Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.







Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.







Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.







Bob DeLeon



Glider pilot and owner since 1997



Folks. This is getting crazy and way out of hand to say the least. Tim has been providing a valuable FREE service to the soaring community for many years. If he profits incidentally than so be it. It is his website, his efforts, he sets the policy and if any one of us don't like it than one should consider going elsewhere. As they say; don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

6PK

Exactly, 6PK It's frigging FREE, if you don't like it I'm sure Tim will give you a full refund for the FREE service. Suck it up play by Tim's rules or go elsewhere. If you came in my store I would through your ass out. Quit whining, play by the rules like everyone else. Tim has every right run his business as he pleases, and he owes no one any explanation. Good going Tim, don't let this asshole get his way! By the way have fun selling your glider on other sites ha ha

How do we know what to believe? Nothing on the website and nothing here? What is the policy? Why not add it to the conditions page of the Wings and Wheels want ads site? Why not clarify here? Why know Tim reads this stuff religiously. We hide under his desk?

And what's with all the swear words guys?

Asshole, go F yourself?

Take a deep breath...again...relax....breathe....

Get that blood pressure down....

That's it....breathe.......

Hilarious.

Sean,

I've heard your a pretty nice guy in person from someone I really respect, but boy do you come off childish on the internet. I, myself, have been guilty of that at least a few times. But I was lucky that someone took me aside and said "Kevin, that might not be the best way to express yourself."

At one point or another, by stating your opinions in outlandish ways and without any knowledge of what actually occurred, you've probably ****ed off half the soaring community. Remember, soaring is a pretty small world. Making enemies of people that have been in soaring for many, many years is probably not the best idea. You may find yourself sitting alone at the next contest social.

2C


On Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:31:28 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
How do we know what to believe? Nothing on the website and nothing here? What is the policy? Why not add it to the conditions page of the Wings and Wheels want ads site? Why not clarify here? Why know Tim reads this stuff religiously. We hide under his desk?



And what's with all the swear words guys?



Asshole, go F yourself?



Take a deep breath...again...relax....breathe....



Get that blood pressure down....



That's it....breathe.......



Hilarious.

Kevin,

It is not in my nature to "tow the party" line due to fear of potential grudges. I will always be honest and tell you how I feel whether Popular or not. I have absolutely no regrets about any of the arguments I have participated in on RAS. Quite the opposite.

Thanks for the complement. And I appreciate what your trying to say. But, if my wife and I are alone at a contest we would laugh about it and enjoy each others company without the slightest regret. We are friendly to everyone becuase we hold no grudges if we disagree on a small point.

The good news is that we have had no such issue however. It's been quite the opposite at contest for us. We really enjoy the social aspects in fact.

Back on topic. Tim should to stand up for himself and state his Wings and Wheels Want Ads policy either here, on his website or both.

As of this moment we have no real knowledge of what his policy is with wings and wheels in reference to these rumored terms and conditions. Only speculation. As of this moment, nothing on his website mentions anything about such a policy. What else do we have to go on?

He could clear it up so easily....but all I hear are crickets........ ........... ........... ............ .......... ............ ..........

Tim? Will you go on the record? What is the Wings and Wheels policy in regards to other want ads web sites?

Thanks in advance.

Sean

Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?

https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl