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#121
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Bill Daniels wrote:
Eric presents a reasonable picture of the glider market. In fact, I think the present glider market is about right. There is a market for state-of-the-art gliders for competition and a flourishing market in used gliders. A person of modest means can buy a 20 year old glass glider with spectacular performance. That 20 year old glider wouldn't be such a bargain on the used market if some competition pilot hadn't bought it for an astronomical sum when it was new. We need to stop knocking competition, it creates a market of really neat used gliders. When I started, if you wanted a high performance glider, you had to build it. By comparison, this market is nirvana. The availability and cost of gliders isn't the real problem. One of the many problems that does need attention is training costs. Rental and airtow make getting a glider rating cost more than a private power certificate in many locations. It's also a LOT more hassle to get glider training because of the short flights and long waits. For anyone interested in aviation but who hasn't chosen whether to go for soaring or another aviation related activity, this is a problem. Glider training costs, particularly the overall hourly rates, just don't look reasonable by comparison. Now, I'm NOT suggesting that anyone is overcharging for rentals or air tows. It costs what is does for very good reasons. It's just that those reasons are not apparent to the newcomer. I think it might be a good idea to take a long hard look at the training "experience" from the students point of view to see if there isn't something that could be done to make it more attractive. The first thing I would suggest is to look at winch launch for training. Bill Daniels "Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ... Lennie the Lurker wrote: Almost every sailplane made today is made with the competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell. There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated than the manufacturers "not listening". They know their gliders must do well in competition (at least the major factories), because potential buyers think this is important, even though the majority of buyers aren't serious competitors (note that the majority of the German sailplane production is now motorized). There are some "second-tier" gliders, like the reintroduction of the Glasflugel 304, the Russia AC-4, Apis, and Silent; however, any new glider that isn't a top-of-the-line glider has some serious competition in the market: used gliders. Glider last a long time, and the performance improvements have been slow, so a new glider that isn't better, just cheaper, has to compete with equal performance, even cheaper used gliders. This situation is quite different from the hang glider market, where the gliders wear out much sooner, and the improvements from year to year are much greater than they are for sailplanes. and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell. Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how something "more pedestrian" might sell. The PW5 actually has sold OK, as did the Russia, and so that may be why we now have the Apis and Silent (at least in part). Attitudes are slowly changing, and "moderate" performance is becoming more acceptable. The manufacturers would probably build more intermediate gliders if the sport was growing fast enough to drive up the price of the used gliders, thus making a new glider of similar performance profitable enough to be worthwhile. -- ----- change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA Hi Eric Got to second that. I really can't understand why winch is not used more, it is cheaper, faster and in some ways safer than aerotow. There is no comparison in terms of profitability for the club. A good winch is a license to print money in most clubs, and a fraction of the cost for the pilots. Even our old lump can throw 30 launches a day to 1500"+ at a cost of under $4 per launch - and make a profit doing it. |
#122
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#123
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#124
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"Wayne Paul" wrote in message ...
It should be noted that Lennie machined the nicest Schreder flap crank system that I have ever seen I wish I had one for my HP-14!! Lennie, if you have one sitting around, I sure would like to buy it!! (Please contact me directly.) I hate it when someone catches me while I'm looking at the tool catalogs! (Email sent) |
#125
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#126
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Liam Finley wrote:
Pat Russell wrote in message . .. Allow me to summarize what I have learned from this thread. Soaring has declined for these reasons: 1. Money 2. Accessibility 3. Competition from other activities 4. Elitism Valiant efforts have been made to lessen the impact of the first three, but isn't it embarrassing how feebly we have tackled the fourth, the easiest one to address? -Pat I think the elitism problem is largely an urban myth. It's all too easy for unsuccesful pilots to blame elitism rather than take a hard look at their own lack of skill, ability or perserverence. Perhaps we should start voluntarily limiting our flights to 1 hour and within 15 miles of the airport so the Lennies of the world needn't feel so bad about their lack of achievement. Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us". Nothing Lennie says could be worse than this. -- ----- change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#127
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Lennie,
Given that you have quit gliding, why don't you quit 'contributing' to this site? I don't understand why you persist in partaking of discussions on a subject you are no longer interested in. However, I strongly suspect it because you do not require assistance from other persons in obtaining sexual gratification. Regards, Ben. At 01:42 20 April 2004, Lennie The Lurker wrote: (JohnD) wrote in message news:... Lennie, When you choose to listen to the negative minority rather than the postive majory YOU CHOOSE to live a sad and bitter life. IT IS YOUR CHOICE. If you have no more determination than to give up due to some negative words then you SHOULD move on to something else. Hmmm. 2 1/2 years is reasonable? Like maybe I didn't hear it the first time? I'm also afraid that five people isn't a majority. I've said it before, the cost was the main reason, all the mouths did was make it that much easier to decide that it wasn't worth the cost. You obviously find a great deal of pleasure helping others with your work. What if someone told you the wheelchair axle wasn't perfect and derided you. Would you quit that too? I think not. First, they wouldn't deride me, and secondly, I'd make a new one immediately. I don't blame the machine, and you can't lie to a micrometer. Thirdly, if any did try to deride me, I'd tell them to contact the manufacturer and pay through the nose for it. It's quite evident that you have never worked with a german toolmaker, you have no idea of what negative is yet. I see that a few have understood what I'm saying, and maybe they might be able to prevent the interest of another person from being destroyed. IF you want to fix a situation, you look at all the reasons that it needs fixing, not exclude the ones that might possibly include yourself. IF you're going to exclude one, you might as well exclude them all. |
#128
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and is this not exactly the reason why soaring is declining,
because some people within the sport cannot participate in a reasoned argument without resorting to verbal abuse and personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to express that opinion. Who is to say if Lennie is right or wrong? The fact is that he has been put off gliding, for whatever reason, and if too many people are put off then the whole sport suffers. I have to say I agree with his reasoning up to a point, but to be honest, not the way in which he puts that across, but who am I to talk, I can be blunt too. If all you have to contibute is name calling and personal abuse then perhaps you are insecure and less sucessful that you want to be, more to be pitied than blamed. Try working on making yourself better not everyone else worse. Violence of any sort is the last resort of the imcompetent. DAJ At 10:00 20 April 2004, Ben Flewett wrote: Lennie, Given that you have quit gliding, why don't you quit 'contributing' to this site? I don't understand why you persist in partaking of discussions on a subject you are no longer interested in. However, I strongly suspect it because you do not require assistance from other persons in obtaining sexual gratification. Regards, Ben. At 01:42 20 April 2004, Lennie The Lurker wrote: (JohnD) wrote in message news:... Lennie, When you choose to listen to the negative minority rather than the postive majory YOU CHOOSE to live a sad and bitter life. IT IS YOUR CHOICE. If you have no more determination than to give up due to some negative words then you SHOULD move on to something else. Hmmm. 2 1/2 years is reasonable? Like maybe I didn't hear it the first time? I'm also afraid that five people isn't a majority. I've said it before, the cost was the main reason, all the mouths did was make it that much easier to decide that it wasn't worth the cost. You obviously find a great deal of pleasure helping others with your work. What if someone told you the wheelchair axle wasn't perfect and derided you. Would you quit that too? I think not. First, they wouldn't deride me, and secondly, I'd make a new one immediately. I don't blame the machine, and you can't lie to a micrometer. Thirdly, if any did try to deride me, I'd tell them to contact the manufacturer and pay through the nose for it. It's quite evident that you have never worked with a german toolmaker, you have no idea of what negative is yet. I see that a few have understood what I'm saying, and maybe they might be able to prevent the interest of another person from being destroyed. IF you want to fix a situation, you look at all the reasons that it needs fixing, not exclude the ones that might possibly include yourself. IF you're going to exclude one, you might as well exclude them all. |
#129
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I think it's worth to read what Lennie writes here (whatever style he use). It's an unusual chance to hear about someone who decided to quit. I felt something similar what described here before switched to my new club... In previous club there were several "old pilots" (spent more than 5 years at the airport) who believed they are somehow special just because they do this sport. They also expressed that they are somehow rule everyone who joined the club not too long ago. /Janos JohnD wrote: Lennie, When you choose to listen to the negative minority rather than the postive majory YOU CHOOSE to live a sad and bitter life. IT IS YOUR CHOICE. If you have no more determination than to give up due to some negative words then you SHOULD move on to something else. You obviously find a great deal of pleasure helping others with your work. What if someone told you the wheelchair axle wasn't perfect and derided you. Would you quit that too? I think not. Since you don't soar anymore why don't you take YOUR negativity and spite and move on, leave us alone so that we can enjoy our sport whether we fly a 1-26, a PW5, or a Nimbus. Please do us a favor and move on. You will have then chosen to be a happier person. May you find peace and happiness. |
#130
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Don Johnstone writes
and is this not exactly the reason why soaring is declining, because some people within the sport cannot participate in a reasoned argument without resorting to verbal abuse and personal attacks. I doubt that this has anything to do with any decline in soaring, perceived or otherwise. The inability of some people to participate in a reasoned argument without resorting to verbal abuse and personal attack is generic to (multinational and cross-cultural) society as a whole, not just the soaring fraternity. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to express that opinion. Who is to say if Lennie is right or wrong? The fact is that he has been put off gliding, for whatever reason, and if too many people are put off then the whole sport suffers. I wouldn't presume to judge Lennie, save on the basis of how he portrays himself on this forum and in this context. But on this forum and in this context he is both very vocal with his arguments, provocative and emotive in the way that he expresses his opinions and oddball in that he vehemently derides something that is a consuming passion of everybody else here and is the whole point and subject of these forums and yet here he still remains. You'll forgive me for commenting, but I find that somewhat perverse (if amusing, however). Lennie has said himself that the tag "Lennie the Lurker" was an identity he created specifically to indulge in flame wars on a previous aviation forum. Other Internet communities I've previously been a part of would dismiss (and flame) such a character as a "troll". Ben Flewett felt compelled to find an amusing way of calling him a ******. A rose by any other name? Hardly a surprise that somebody should feel so inspired, and hardly a reflection on the state of the global soaring community, its decline or otherwise. If all you have to contibute is name calling and personal abuse then perhaps you are insecure and less sucessful that you want to be, more to be pitied than blamed. Try working on making yourself better not everyone else worse. Violence of any sort is the last resort of the imcompetent. Uh, incompetent? I'm quite sure Mr Flewett can fight his own battles, but in any case, now who's getting personal? And, for that matter, who the hell am I to comment on amother man's typos? :P Newbie question of my own, just to justify this post with lip service towards the topic in-hand - Is there hard, undisputed statistical evidence to show that soaring is actually in decline? It strikes me that soaring is always going to be a more specialist pastime. Call it elitist if you will, but if you read only negative into that then you are missing the point. Elitism is fine, laudable even if it is an open, benevolent elitism, an obtainable available to anybody that wants to put in the effort and dedication required to reach the necessary standard. But not everybody will want to do that. To others the cost and sacrifice simply wouldn't be worth it. Could be I'm fortunate. The club membership I've landed with have been open, friendly, welcoming and generally tolerant of me as an incoming newbie. However, I'll be honest and say that to me, standing around a cold, damp airfield all day waiting for a couple of circuits with a stranger for an instructor would be a worthwhile sacrifice on the road to learning to soar. The fact that I've been able to do it in good company, that I generally get more than a couple of circuits for my labours and none of the instructors remained strangers for more than a single launch is a bonus. I'm not complaining. But I didn't take up gliding for the social group. I didn't do it to make new friends and influence people. I certainly didn't do it to gain the approval of anybody, and certainly not the approval of strangers. I did it because hanging alone upon a thermal beneath the dewpoint with the countryside spread out in all its summer splendour three thousand feet below is the realisation of a lifelong dream and ambition. If all goes to plan, I might actually achieve that this summer. The cost of the hard work in all its forms in getting there will have been worth it for me. Lennie made the decision that it wasnot worth it for him, but that's cool - each to their own. There will always be a majority of people that find the costs (financial and otherwise) of soaring far outweigh the rewards, rewards that they not only can't even perceive but don't want to and wouldn't see the value in anyway. So you like blues but I like jazz? That's okay, we're both cool after our own fashion. I can't see gliding ever being what you'd term "mainstream". On the other hand, that's half of the charm. So with that said, surely the prerogative should not be a desire or argument to reverse an apparent decline, but merely ensure that the sport and the community remains open and accessible enough to be found by and accept the new blood that finds its way here to replace the old blood that is inevitably lost through natural attrition? The important thing is that soaring is sustained. -- Bill Gribble /---------------------------------------\ | http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk | | http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk | \---------------------------------------/ |
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