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"zero" versus "oscar" versus "sierra"



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 17th 04, 06:35 PM
Ron Garret
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Default "zero" versus "oscar" versus "sierra"


I fly an airplane whose last two digits in its identifier are "0P"
(indicating that it's an OurPlane aircraft). Of course, OurPlane would
have liked it to be "OP" instead, but the FAA won't allow "oscar" in
aircraft identifiers, only "zero".

It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
(try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.) Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion. Does anyone know what it
would take to try to make this case to the FAA to try to get them to
change their minds?

rg
  #2  
Old December 17th 04, 06:39 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...

I fly an airplane whose last two digits in its identifier are "0P"
(indicating that it's an OurPlane aircraft). Of course, OurPlane would
have liked it to be "OP" instead, but the FAA won't allow "oscar" in
aircraft identifiers, only "zero".

It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
(try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.) Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion. Does anyone know what it
would take to try to make this case to the FAA to try to get them to
change their minds?


Would the confusion be alleviated if you used the last three characters
instead of just the last two?


  #3  
Old December 17th 04, 06:41 PM
Ron Garret
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Default

In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...

I fly an airplane whose last two digits in its identifier are "0P"
(indicating that it's an OurPlane aircraft). Of course, OurPlane would
have liked it to be "OP" instead, but the FAA won't allow "oscar" in
aircraft identifiers, only "zero".

It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
(try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.) Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion. Does anyone know what it
would take to try to make this case to the FAA to try to get them to
change their minds?


Would the confusion be alleviated if you used the last three characters
instead of just the last two?


No. The identifiers are identical but for the 0 and the S: N880P and
N88SP are both based at VNY.

rg
  #4  
Old December 17th 04, 06:45 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...

No. The identifiers are identical but for the 0 and the S: N880P and
N88SP are both based at VNY.


Then you're just going to have to live with it. The letter O is not used in
identifiers to avoid confusion with zero. Are the aircraft the same type?


  #5  
Old December 17th 04, 07:03 PM
Jose
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[ zero poppa and sierra poppa]
Can you apply for a completely new identifier?

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #6  
Old December 17th 04, 08:56 PM
Peter R.
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Default

Ron Garret ) wrote:

It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
(try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
in the pattern.


I trained in a C172 that ended in 0LP (Zero Lima Poppa). Most times
when I used the abbreviated callsign, the controller would almost always
hear "Zero Juliet Poppa" and call back to ask which call sign it was.

Those two also sound similar over the radio when 0LP is spoken a bit too
fast.

--
Peter





  #7  
Old December 17th 04, 09:49 PM
Bill Denton
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Default

As a former disc jockey, let me give you a hint. By and large, the
understandability of a communication is not really dependent upon how fast
the words are spoken.

To avoid miscommunication, you want to strongly "attack" each word, make
sure you say the entire word with no trailing off at the end, and make sure
you leave a slight space between words.

Fast or slow, "zerolimapappa" will never be as intelligible as "ZEEro -
LEEma - PAppa".

A couple of more hints. Spend a little time "over pronouncing" words, where
you make sure you are saying every syllable. It will sound really "stilted"
for a while, but if you keep practicing, in a short time you will develop a
natural rhythm. Listen to a good radio or television announcer and you will
see what I'm talking about.

And try to more or less snap out the word, like they do in the military when
they say something like: "Yes - Sir".

I'm a Suthunah, and when I got into radio I first had to learn how nawmul
people tawk when they're talking sloppy, then put a little polish on it. It
took me about six months total to do it. bit it's really not that hard to
do, just make it a point to be constantly conscious of how you are
pronouncing and pacing words, and you'll pick it up in no time...




"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Ron Garret ) wrote:

It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
(try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
in the pattern.


I trained in a C172 that ended in 0LP (Zero Lima Poppa). Most times
when I used the abbreviated callsign, the controller would almost always
hear "Zero Juliet Poppa" and call back to ask which call sign it was.

Those two also sound similar over the radio when 0LP is spoken a bit too
fast.

--
Peter







  #8  
Old December 17th 04, 10:00 PM
Schmoe
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Default

Ron Garret wrote:
I fly an airplane whose last two digits in its identifier are "0P"
(indicating that it's an OurPlane aircraft). Of course, OurPlane
would have liked it to be "OP" instead, but the FAA won't allow
"oscar" in aircraft identifiers, only "zero".

It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP".


What kind of planes are both?


  #9  
Old December 17th 04, 10:19 PM
Dan Luke
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Default


"Ron Garret" wrote:
In the air it
turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike


"SIERRA" is a failure as a phonetic letter and should be changed, IMO.
"SUGAR" was better, but it is too much of an oddball pronunciaton to be
successful internationally. How about "SUPER?"

(try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.)


Some pilots with "SIERRA" in their tail #s get sick of the continual
confusion and substitute "SUGAR." Controllers always accept it, even use it
themselves sometimes. Normally I am opposed to non-standard phraseology but
I make an exception in this case. "SIERRA" sucks.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM


  #10  
Old December 17th 04, 10:37 PM
Mike Adams
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

Then you're just going to have to live with it. The letter O is not
used in identifiers to avoid confusion with zero. Are the aircraft
the same type?


This reminds me of an interesting radio exchange I heard at DVT a few weeks ago. There was an
airplane departing with a zero in its call sign, I can't remember, but let's say N1023A. The pilot, called
himself "one-oh-two-three-alpha". The controller never corrected him on this and never offered him a
shortened call sign, but instead responded to him as "november one oscar two three alpha". The pilot
didn't catch on for the longest time, continuing to read this back as "one oh two three alpha". The
controller continued to give him extra traffic callouts and instructions, still with the full "oscar" ident, until
finally the pilot woke up and realized the situation and said, "and tower, that's one zero two three alpha",
to which the controller just said "thank you" and that was the end of it. The games people play....

Mike
 




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