Parachute Lanyard

bagmaker wrote:
Is there a good way to determine a 10000' height when falling, to pull a
ripcord? Surely there is enough go-gas available at even 15000 for a
minute or so of slow decent under a canopy to survive the fall?

I should think that's OK. I've driven directly up to 14000 (during a
visit to Denver I was given the car keys and told to drive up Pikes
Peak). I felt a little weak on first arrival, but after a coffee and a
donut I was happy walking round up there for a half hour or so. I've
also walked up Poon Hill (Nepal) before breakfast to see sunrise on
Daulagiri. Poon Hill is 10,500 ft. We were staying at Gorepani (9000 ft)
after a three day walk from under 1000 ft. Climbing Poon Hill was no
problem either. I'm not much more than averagely fit: chasing Free
Flight model aircraft on foot and rigging gliders are my main forms of
exercise.

The South Col on Everest is 7980m (26000 ft) and I've heard that most
climbers think the Death Zone starts about 800 ft higher. The Death Zone
is the point above which oxygen lack will kill you, no matter how well
acclimatised you are, if you stay there for too long. I'm guessing that
what that means for us is that a bail-out at 20,000 or lower is
survivable under a parachute provided frostbite doesn't cause permanent
damage and you aren't in a cu-nim with up-currents slowing your descent
rate, but I'll gladly take correction on this. I've never jumped and
don't intend to: I see no reason to step out of a correctly functioning
aircraft

Does anybody know a typical sink rate for the sort of chutes we use?

As a non-jumper, how long does one actually have freefalling at our
glider flying heights before hitting the ground?

120 mph seems to be generally accepted as the terminal velocity for a
free-falling, fully dressed person: that's 176 feet/sec, or 5.7 secs per
thousand feet, or 17 to 28 seconds from typical UK xc heights.

I fear over-complicating such an emergency is a step backwards, but I am
open to the conversation.

Same here. Other points that occur to me:

- I've heard that skydivers have a good stopwatch/watch with
sweep second hand and an altimeter with them. If this is true,
is it sensible to try free fall without these aids?

- are our emergency chutes designed to be opened at terminal velocity?
Would the chute and/or pilot survive the shock loading?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Aug 28, 12:28 am, bagmaker
wrote:
1.) If you bail out in the high altitude, you might consider a
freefall for some time, lets say 1 minute to get you down to more
dense air. If you have a lanyard (also known as a static line, which
can only be installed by a rigger) you would need some sort of oxygen
supply because the parachute will open immediately.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

Guys, you a scaring me!

How long does it take to freefall (say) 10000' ?
Or 5000 ?
We know if we have departed the cosy cockpit real high because we would
have a sore nose from the oxy supply being ripped out, and, we were real
high when we lost control. Things get sticky after that, like how long
did it take me to depart?
How long was I spinning/tumbling/flipping before I departed?

Most of the bale-outs I have heard of (not many) have occured as a result
of a mid-air or the wings departing for whatever reason, luckily quite
high.
More dangerous Mid-airs are normally quite low, as the gliders hit whilst
entering a thermal during pull-up.

I suppose the luxury of having any height is a good start, but now I have
to think of oxygen starvation during a successful bale-out as well!

Is there a good way to determine a 10000' height when falling, to pull a
ripcord? Surely there is enough go-gas available at even 15000 for a
minute or so of slow decent under a canopy to survive the fall?
Or should we wait until 2 or 3000' before pulling (and be guessing that
height too) the ripcord.

As a non-jumper, how long does one actually have freefalling at our
glider flying heights before hitting the ground?

I fear over-complicating such an emergency is a step backwards, but I am
open to the conversation.

Thanks,

bagger

--
bagmaker

Yeah, those are some questions a non-jumper might asks. It takes about
60 seconds to freefall for about 10,000 feet. And I don't want to go
to maybe 55 sec. or maybe a 1 min. 05 sec. argument, but a good number
is 60 seconds. In the US or Europe, flights above 18,000 ft are not
really that unusual. In many cases pilots will go to 30,000 ft levels
or even higher. So, if you have to bail out at that altitude would you
pull the ripcord right away? I would not. I would freefall for at
least 60 seconds or a time that is is necessary to deploy my parachute
at or below 15,000 ft. In a case of non jumpers that initial
acceleration is horrifying, but after you accelerate to about 120 MPH
the sensation of speed goes away. The only thing remaining is that
everybody who exits an aircraft without a training, will be spinning
in the freefall. Guaranteed. That is why I did recommend to take a
couple of jumps with a tandem instructor or maybe for those with more
courage, take a couple of jumps with 2 AFFF instructors. They will
teach you, among other things, how to freefall stable in the "arch"
position. When you take the plunge, you will look at things with
totally different perspective. Now, the issue is how are you going to
time yourself; and I don't know how to answer that. If I am
freefalling I can determine the approximate altitude fairly
accurately. I guess for a pilot only, the answer should be "freefall
as far as you can within some reasonable amount of time". There was 2
documented saves from wave flights (high altitude) that I am aware of,
that happen not long ago; one in France, when a section of the
sailplane wing broke off and one in Nevada when a sailplane broke
apart in flight. Thankfully, both pilots are alive and can talk about
it. Than comes the issue of "normal" altitude due to a collision for
example. Now the answer is more simple: jettison the canopy, free
yourself from whatever attaches you to the glider such as oxygen
system, microphone and finally seat belts get out, clear the sailplane
and pull. If the glider is spinning, go with the spin. That is very,
very important. But if you are low, and for example you aileron
disconnected itself and you know you cannot land sailplane in that
condition, what do you do? Do you jump out? You might be to low for
the parachute to fill itself with air and slow you down. But you can
jettison the canopy, raise yourself in the cockpit sideways, try to
stand up as much as possible, and when your container with the
parachute is in the air stream, pull the rip cord. Let the parachute
pull you out of the glider. And yes, you might hit the tail with your
hands, arm, leg, you might even brake it, but you will live, heal and
fly again. I recommend that everybody have a plan and practice
emergency exit. You never know if it might become handy or not, but at
least you are prepared and you will know what to do. And that is the
least you can do for yourself.

There is the perception among glider pilots, that the parachute
lanyard is being attached to the ripcord handle. That is wrong. The
parachute lanyard is attached directly to your closing pins, so if you
don't disconnect before you get out of the cockpit, chances are pretty
good you might accidentally open the container and get the pilot chute
to pup up and the canopy fabric coming out. There is also a perception
that parachutes are nothing more than expensive cushion to seat on.
Many will leave the parachute in the cockpit, in the glider stored in
the trailer that is parked outside in 100+ degree weather. I have seen
pilots spilling drinks, such as Coke, on the parachute and they call
it fine. I am a former skydiver, former static line instructor,
current parachute rigger. I have been flying since 1980 and I have
seen different mishaps and accidents and I know that there are ways to
reduce chances of accidents by a huge margin, just by preparing
ourselves mentally and theoretically about given subject.

Now, I opened a cane of worms, but I am ready for the shots.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

wrote:
There is the perception among glider pilots, that the parachute
lanyard is being attached to the ripcord handle. That is wrong. The
parachute lanyard is attached directly to your closing pins, so if you
don't disconnect before you get out of the cockpit, chances are pretty
good you might accidentally open the container and get the pilot chute
to pup up and the canopy fabric coming out.

Actually, the rigger with who I discussed using a lanyard said he could
fabricate an attachment on the cable near the closing pins, such that
both the lanyard and the handle would be functional. He also suggested
that I not do it...

Marc

No can of worms from me. I fully agree with you.
* 70 jumps
* packed tons of chutes to pay for my jumps while in college.
* Seen many chutes stored in trailers all year round, in hot/humid/cold
weather. One belonging to a friend is now a decoration in his barn...fully
decayed and abused.
wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 28, 12:28 am, bagmaker
wrote:
1.) If you bail out in the high altitude, you might consider a
freefall for some time, lets say 1 minute to get you down to more
dense air. If you have a lanyard (also known as a static line, which
can only be installed by a rigger) you would need some sort of oxygen
supply because the parachute will open immediately.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

Guys, you a scaring me!

How long does it take to freefall (say) 10000' ?
Or 5000 ?
We know if we have departed the cosy cockpit real high because we would
have a sore nose from the oxy supply being ripped out, and, we were real
high when we lost control. Things get sticky after that, like how long
did it take me to depart?
How long was I spinning/tumbling/flipping before I departed?

Most of the bale-outs I have heard of (not many) have occured as a result
of a mid-air or the wings departing for whatever reason, luckily quite
high.
More dangerous Mid-airs are normally quite low, as the gliders hit whilst
entering a thermal during pull-up.

I suppose the luxury of having any height is a good start, but now I have
to think of oxygen starvation during a successful bale-out as well!

Is there a good way to determine a 10000' height when falling, to pull a
ripcord? Surely there is enough go-gas available at even 15000 for a
minute or so of slow decent under a canopy to survive the fall?
Or should we wait until 2 or 3000' before pulling (and be guessing that
height too) the ripcord.

As a non-jumper, how long does one actually have freefalling at our
glider flying heights before hitting the ground?

I fear over-complicating such an emergency is a step backwards, but I am
open to the conversation.

Thanks,

bagger

--
bagmaker

Yeah, those are some questions a non-jumper might asks. It takes about
60 seconds to freefall for about 10,000 feet. And I don't want to go
to maybe 55 sec. or maybe a 1 min. 05 sec. argument, but a good number
is 60 seconds. In the US or Europe, flights above 18,000 ft are not
really that unusual. In many cases pilots will go to 30,000 ft levels
or even higher. So, if you have to bail out at that altitude would you
pull the ripcord right away? I would not. I would freefall for at
least 60 seconds or a time that is is necessary to deploy my parachute
at or below 15,000 ft. In a case of non jumpers that initial
acceleration is horrifying, but after you accelerate to about 120 MPH
the sensation of speed goes away. The only thing remaining is that
everybody who exits an aircraft without a training, will be spinning
in the freefall. Guaranteed. That is why I did recommend to take a
couple of jumps with a tandem instructor or maybe for those with more
courage, take a couple of jumps with 2 AFFF instructors. They will
teach you, among other things, how to freefall stable in the "arch"
position. When you take the plunge, you will look at things with
totally different perspective. Now, the issue is how are you going to
time yourself; and I don't know how to answer that. If I am
freefalling I can determine the approximate altitude fairly
accurately. I guess for a pilot only, the answer should be "freefall
as far as you can within some reasonable amount of time". There was 2
documented saves from wave flights (high altitude) that I am aware of,
that happen not long ago; one in France, when a section of the
sailplane wing broke off and one in Nevada when a sailplane broke
apart in flight. Thankfully, both pilots are alive and can talk about
it. Than comes the issue of "normal" altitude due to a collision for
example. Now the answer is more simple: jettison the canopy, free
yourself from whatever attaches you to the glider such as oxygen
system, microphone and finally seat belts get out, clear the sailplane
and pull. If the glider is spinning, go with the spin. That is very,
very important. But if you are low, and for example you aileron
disconnected itself and you know you cannot land sailplane in that
condition, what do you do? Do you jump out? You might be to low for
the parachute to fill itself with air and slow you down. But you can
jettison the canopy, raise yourself in the cockpit sideways, try to
stand up as much as possible, and when your container with the
parachute is in the air stream, pull the rip cord. Let the parachute
pull you out of the glider. And yes, you might hit the tail with your
hands, arm, leg, you might even brake it, but you will live, heal and
fly again. I recommend that everybody have a plan and practice
emergency exit. You never know if it might become handy or not, but at
least you are prepared and you will know what to do. And that is the
least you can do for yourself.

There is the perception among glider pilots, that the parachute
lanyard is being attached to the ripcord handle. That is wrong. The
parachute lanyard is attached directly to your closing pins, so if you
don't disconnect before you get out of the cockpit, chances are pretty
good you might accidentally open the container and get the pilot chute
to pup up and the canopy fabric coming out. There is also a perception
that parachutes are nothing more than expensive cushion to seat on.
Many will leave the parachute in the cockpit, in the glider stored in
the trailer that is parked outside in 100+ degree weather. I have seen
pilots spilling drinks, such as Coke, on the parachute and they call
it fine. I am a former skydiver, former static line instructor,
current parachute rigger. I have been flying since 1980 and I have
seen different mishaps and accidents and I know that there are ways to
reduce chances of accidents by a huge margin, just by preparing
ourselves mentally and theoretically about given subject.

Now, I opened a cane of worms, but I am ready for the shots.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

On Aug 28, 11:00 am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
wrote:
There is the perception among glider pilots, that the parachute
lanyard is being attached to the ripcord handle. That is wrong. The
parachute lanyard is attached directly to your closing pins, so if you
don't disconnect before you get out of the cockpit, chances are pretty
good you might accidentally open the container and get the pilot chute
to pup up and the canopy fabric coming out.

Actually, the rigger with who I discussed using a lanyard said he could
fabricate an attachment on the cable near the closing pins, such that
both the lanyard and the handle would be functional. He also suggested
that I not do it...

Marc

Marc,

This is illegal, but ask your rigger if he would demonstrate the
device by him self, lets say simply, by letting him jump that altered
system.

The parachutes that we are wearing on our backs were designed under
TSO C23b in 1949 and it was based on National Aircraft Standards NAS
804. The NAS was rather design standard than performance standard and
its language used the words "LOW SPEED" that means under 150 MPH.
Having said that, (I mean the standard) it would permit some tweaking.
So, some of the manufacturers, in order to obtain the certification,
were quite creative and would for example drop a 600 pound weight at
only 80 MPH and that would make them legal. During the years it was
reported that a 5000 lbs shock load can be very easy exceeded with
small, low porosity canopies at 100 mph with 400 lbs suspended.
In recent years parachute manufacturers neglected the pilot emergency
rig and concentrated on sports skydiving. The standard went from TSO
C23b to TSO C23c and now (since 1994 I believe) we have TSO C23d. The
so called "modern emergency parachute system" is only rated for speeds
ranging up 140-150. But that applies in the US. I don't know the
status of emergency parachutes from different countries. That is why
some of the parachutes (I am not going to name them) are no longer on
the market and riggers with some knowledge will not pack them. I just
wish that manufacturers like Performance Designs (I made over 900
jumps on one of their canopies without any problems) would engage in
pilot emergency parachutes, but I think the market might be to small
for them or the price tag would put a rig like that out of reach of
many pilots.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

wrote:
On Aug 28, 11:00 am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Actually, the rigger with who I discussed using a lanyard said he could
fabricate an attachment on the cable near the closing pins, such that
both the lanyard and the handle would be functional. He also suggested
that I not do it...


This is illegal, but ask your rigger if he would demonstrate the
device by him self, lets say simply, by letting him jump that altered
system.

This was over 20 years ago, when I was contemplating buying my first
glider, and wondered what the little red ring was for. In any case, the
lanyard never seemed like a good idea to me...

Marc

Now I am happier!
Providing I take donuts and coffee, I can pretty much jump from any height.
Cool!
We should make them mandatory for all flights!

Bagger

So if I am inexperienced, untrained glider pilot jumping out of my glider a=
t 10,000 feet should I freefall for 30 secs down to around 3-5000 feet and =
then pull the ripcord when I am spinning like a top and travelling at 120 m=
ph, or should I just allow a few seconds to clear the wreckage and then pul=
l the cord, and hopefully prepare myself for a long and cold, but safe desc=
ent. (How long?)
=20
I anticipate the later option. But I can anticipate having to freefall if I=
was above, say 18000 feet because the hypoxia and cold might be worse than=
the spinning.
=20
If I attempt to open my parachute when I am spinning round and round at 120=
mph, is it liable to open properly or is there a good chance of it all tan=
gling up?
=20
Rory
=20
=20
Yeah, those are some questions a non-jumper might asks. It takes about 6=
0 seconds to freefall for about 10,000 feet. And I don't want to go to may=
be 55 sec. or maybe a 1 min. 05 sec. argument, but a good number is 60 sec=
onds. In the US or Europe, flights above 18,000 ft are not really that unu=
sual. In many cases pilots will go to 30,000 ft levels or even higher. So,=
if you have to bail out at that altitude would you pull the ripcord right=
away? I would not. I would freefall for at least 60 seconds or a time tha=
t is is necessary to deploy my parachute at or below 15,000 ft. In a case =
of non jumpers that initial acceleration is horrifying, but after you acce=
lerate to about 120 MPH the sensation of speed goes away. The only thing r=
emaining is that everybody who exits an aircraft without a training, will =
be spinning in the freefall. Guaranteed. That is why I did recommend to ta=
ke a
__________________________________________________ _______________
Try Live.com - your fast, personalised homepage with all the things you car=
e about in one place.
http://www.live.com/?mkt=3Den-gb =

Even if you rely on the lanyard, you'll still be spinning like a top. As
soon as you exit the glider, you will be unstable, spinning and tumbling
around. There is a very good chance the lanyard will wrap around you,
perhaps tying you to the glider.

I question whether a first-timer in freefall would have the environmental
acuity to recognize their altitude, especially since he'll be spinning and
tumbling wildly.

Do an AFF or just take the risk.

"Rory O'Conor" wrote in message
...


So if I am inexperienced, untrained glider pilot jumping out of my glider
a=
t 10,000 feet should I freefall for 30 secs down to around 3-5000 feet and
=
then pull the ripcord when I am spinning like a top and travelling at 120
m=
ph, or should I just allow a few seconds to clear the wreckage and then
pul=
l the cord, and hopefully prepare myself for a long and cold, but safe
desc=
ent. (How long?)
=20
I anticipate the later option. But I can anticipate having to freefall if
I=
was above, say 18000 feet because the hypoxia and cold might be worse
than=
the spinning.
=20
If I attempt to open my parachute when I am spinning round and round at
120=
mph, is it liable to open properly or is there a good chance of it all
tan=
gling up?
=20
Rory
=20
=20
Yeah, those are some questions a non-jumper might asks. It takes about
6=
0 seconds to freefall for about 10,000 feet. And I don't want to go to
may=
be 55 sec. or maybe a 1 min. 05 sec. argument, but a good number is 60
sec=
onds. In the US or Europe, flights above 18,000 ft are not really that
unu=
sual. In many cases pilots will go to 30,000 ft levels or even higher.
So,=
if you have to bail out at that altitude would you pull the ripcord
right=
away? I would not. I would freefall for at least 60 seconds or a time
tha=
t is is necessary to deploy my parachute at or below 15,000 ft. In a case
=
of non jumpers that initial acceleration is horrifying, but after you
acce=
lerate to about 120 MPH the sensation of speed goes away. The only thing
r=
emaining is that everybody who exits an aircraft without a training, will
=
be spinning in the freefall. Guaranteed. That is why I did recommend to
ta=
ke a
__________________________________________________ _______________
Try Live.com - your fast, personalised homepage with all the things you
car=
e about in one place.
http://www.live.com/?mkt=3Den-gb =

With a 20ft lanyard, you won't have much time to spin before the chute is
pulled.

With a manual chute (which I use to have on my back), I would pull
immediately after egressing the glider at any altitude I usually fly at
(which is up to 18'000 ft). Especially when the mountains below me have
their tops somewhere between 10'000ft and 14'000ft.
Hitting a mountain slope with 5 m/s while dangling unconsciently below a
parachute may not be the optimum solution. However, hitting it at 200 kph
with my eyes wide open seems to me even worse.

I take emergency parachutes as a tool to survive, not necessarily as a
solution to just walk away.

"Jim Vincent" wrote in message
. ..
Even if you rely on the lanyard, you'll still be spinning like a top. As
soon as you exit the glider, you will be unstable, spinning and tumbling
around. There is a very good chance the lanyard will wrap around you,
perhaps tying you to the glider.

I question whether a first-timer in freefall would have the environmental
acuity to recognize their altitude, especially since he'll be spinning and
tumbling wildly.

Do an AFF or just take the risk.

"Rory O'Conor" wrote in
message ...


So if I am inexperienced, untrained glider pilot jumping out of my glider
a=
t 10,000 feet should I freefall for 30 secs down to around 3-5000 feet
and =
then pull the ripcord when I am spinning like a top and travelling at 120
m=
ph, or should I just allow a few seconds to clear the wreckage and then
pul=
l the cord, and hopefully prepare myself for a long and cold, but safe
desc=
ent. (How long?)
=20
I anticipate the later option. But I can anticipate having to freefall if
I=
was above, say 18000 feet because the hypoxia and cold might be worse
than=
the spinning.
=20
If I attempt to open my parachute when I am spinning round and round at
120=
mph, is it liable to open properly or is there a good chance of it all
tan=
gling up?
=20
Rory
=20
=20
Yeah, those are some questions a non-jumper might asks. It takes about
6=
0 seconds to freefall for about 10,000 feet. And I don't want to go to
may=
be 55 sec. or maybe a 1 min. 05 sec. argument, but a good number is 60
sec=
onds. In the US or Europe, flights above 18,000 ft are not really that
unu=
sual. In many cases pilots will go to 30,000 ft levels or even higher.
So,=
if you have to bail out at that altitude would you pull the ripcord
right=
away? I would not. I would freefall for at least 60 seconds or a time
tha=
t is is necessary to deploy my parachute at or below 15,000 ft. In a
case =
of non jumpers that initial acceleration is horrifying, but after you
acce=
lerate to about 120 MPH the sensation of speed goes away. The only thing
r=
emaining is that everybody who exits an aircraft without a training,
will =
be spinning in the freefall. Guaranteed. That is why I did recommend to
ta=
ke a
__________________________________________________ _______________
Try Live.com - your fast, personalised homepage with all the things you
car=
e about in one place.
http://www.live.com/?mkt=3Den-gb =