Are asking prices really as unrealistic as they look

wrote:
it had every speed mod ever made for a Cherokee
235 --which is a difficult plane to find --

zatatime wrote:
Could you list these please? I'm interested in trying to afford a few
of these in the near future. Also, any specs on what you get for
speed would be great.

I got a Wag Aero catalog in the mail the other day.
On one page they have a line drawing of a Piper with arrows labeling
each speed mod available.

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 20:30:31 GMT, john smith wrote:


wrote:
it had every speed mod ever made for a Cherokee
235 --which is a difficult plane to find --

zatatime wrote:
Could you list these please? I'm interested in trying to afford a few
of these in the near future. Also, any specs on what you get for
speed would be great.

I got a Wag Aero catalog in the mail the other day.
On one page they have a line drawing of a Piper with arrows labeling
each speed mod available.

Speed mods for the 235 are discussed ad nauseam on the 235 BBS:

http://www.cabo-rental.net/cherokee235/home.htm

Everything you could ever want to know about the birds is archived
there. Some, like STCs, even have their own sections. There are 13
pages of STCs. Then search the discussions for what you're
particularly interested in.

My interpretation of the discussions on speed mods, BTW, is that they
do more for roll rate, touchdown control, and rate of climb than they
do for speed. YMMV.

Don

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:24:24 GMT, zatatime
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 12:50:29 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

it had every speed mod ever made for a Cherokee
235 --which is a difficult plane to find --


Could you list these please? I'm interested in trying to afford a few
of these in the near future. Also, any specs on what you get for
speed would be great.

knots2u.com
laminarflowsystems.com
pipermods.com
speedmods.com

Could you list these please? I'm interested in trying to afford a few
of these in the near future. Also, any specs on what you get for
speed would be great.

As others have mentioned, there are many good sources of information
regarding Cherokee speed mods. A short list of ours include:

- Fancy pants
- Flap gap seals
- Aileron gap seals
- Stabilator gap seals
- Fuselage-to-wing fairing
- Position light removed from rudder -- special fairing installed
- Landing light faired over with plexiglas

Regarding their effectiveness, I've been told that the larger-engined
Cherokees seem to benefit more from them. We flight-plan for 142 knots, and
will easily walk away from a stock retractable Arrow.

Of course, I'll be burning 15 gallons per hour to do it (to his 10 gph) --
but there's no free lunch...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
newsYD_c.123500$Fg5.16237@attbi_s53...
Run from these folks as fast as you can, because they will fleece you.

I think you can only fleece yourself. Unless they are holding a gun.

Howard
C-182P


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Bob Noel wrote in message ...

In article , xyzzy
wrote:


I doubt it. According to Vref my cherokee 140 is worth over
$50,000. However, I doubt I could get that much - nor would
it be a fair price.

I always thought Vref was at least 10% too high.


Maybe a Cherokiee thing. If anyone ever seens an Aeronca, Cub, or
Taylorcraft that is airworth and is priced at Vref, I'll write a check
right now. In my experience, the airworthy ones are about 50%-100%
higher than Vref (although Vref is suppose to represent airworthy
planes)
-Robert

That's an interesting observation, I was looking at an Aircoupe, Vref
sez $17K and the guy has it priced at $27K. It's in decent shape but not
a total cream puff. That spread is so wide as to be ridiculous and
makes me think it may not even be worth trying to negotiate with someone
who appears to be so far off. I was trying to figure out what could
acccount for such a spread. Maybe Vref doesn't do as good a job on
older cheaper planes, or it's as you said above, or maybe the guy is
just proud of his plane.

I also looked at Cherokee 140's and see that Vref's prices are closer to
what people are asking. Maybe they just do a better job with some
aircraft types than others, particular commonly sold vs. rarely sold.

Run from these folks as fast as you can, because they will fleece you.

I think you can only fleece yourself. Unless they are holding a gun.

So true!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

It depends on whether you are buying or selling. Actually Vref and the other
valuation services are, at best, extremely rough guesses. They don't really
have any hard data to work with. Sale prices are often reported to the FAA
as "$1 and other consideration." Sale prices reported to states have their
own inaccuracies, for obvious reasons.

The valuation services are also slow. The prices they quote are usually six
months or more out of date. As the economy recovers the price of used
aircraft is likely to firm up. There has also been a glut of used aircraft
on the market due to tax incentives for purchasing new aircraft. These
incentives expire at the end of this year and lose much of their value at
the end of this month.

If the price of an airplane looks too high, it probably is. The seller wants
some negotiating room. If it looks like a good deal, don't expect the seller
to move off his asking price.

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 01:11:55 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Could you list these please? I'm interested in trying to afford a few
of these in the near future. Also, any specs on what you get for
speed would be great.

As others have mentioned, there are many good sources of information
regarding Cherokee speed mods. A short list of ours include:

- Fancy pants
- Flap gap seals
- Aileron gap seals
- Stabilator gap seals
- Fuselage-to-wing fairing
- Position light removed from rudder -- special fairing installed
- Landing light faired over with plexiglas

Regarding their effectiveness, I've been told that the larger-engined
Cherokees seem to benefit more from them. We flight-plan for 142 knots, and
will easily walk away from a stock retractable Arrow.

Of course, I'll be burning 15 gallons per hour to do it (to his 10 gph) --
but there's no free lunch...


Thanks Jay. These are all the mods I've heard of, although the
landing light fairing is new to me (and you said this was a short
list?). I normally flight plan at 135 Kts and always seem to beat it.
Good to know you're around 142. Your 15 gph sounds high to me. I get
about 12.6 in cruise at about 75% power. Does this include a safety
margin?

Thanks also to the poster who directed me to the 235 site. I hadn't
been there in a while, and learned I should look at my rigging first.
Not exactly how to go about that, but it may give me a couple knots
for free.

I'm not really looking to go alot faster, but more importantly
increase my range by being able to fly at a reduced power setting at
what I currently flight plan for. I've got a couple destinations that
are just out of reach (30 - 45 minutes) that I'd like to bring into
reach w/o a fuel stop.

Thanks again.
z

"Jay Honeck" wrote
In my opinion, these little things tell the tale of an aircraft. An owner
isn't going to put out that kind of effort, and then skate on oil changes,
for example. You can usually judge a book by its cover, IF the airplane has
been in the same hands for a while.

Nonsense. These airplanes are old. Unless you're talking about a
hangar queen that flies 20-50 hours a year and gets worked on 200-500
hours, there's no such thing as a perfect airplane out there. They
all need SOMETHING. Everywhere you look, something is wearing,
something is corroding, something is cracking, something is out of
rig, out of tune, out of adjustment. Maybe it's not safety critical
right now, but eventually something will have to be done - and it's
usually cheaper to do something small now than wait for it to break.

So it's not a question of - should I be doing something for the
airplane. The only question is, what should I be doing.

The owner who has the time to keep the paint and interior immaculate
is usually the same owner who just doesn't know enough to fix stuff,
so he does what he can. Then he tells you that NDB approaches are
inaccurate, forgetting that once people shot them to 200-1/2. The
reality is that he doesn't know how to properly adjust the antenna and
shield the receiver, and assumes there's nothing he can do. He'll
tell you that LORAN's all go flaky as soon as it starts to rain -
because he doesn't even realize his airplane doesn't have the full
complement of static wicks. He'll tell you it's normal for the
airplane to drop a wing in the stall - because he doesn't know how to
rig it properly. There are lots of other examples.

On the other hand, I know of owners who fly around in the doggiest looking
pieces of crap you've ever seen, who are fairly meticulous about the
mechanical condition of their aircraft. This is not usually the case
(most aircraft owners take pride in the appearance of their aircraft), but
I've seen it more than once.

You've seen it more than you think. It's a matter of priorities -
those who really know the airplane are too busy to clean it because
they have more important things to do.

Those aircraft are your best bargains, if you can find them. An aircraft
with crappy paint and interior, but in great shape mechanically, will be
your best possible buy -- but they're really hard to find.

Yes, they're usually hard to find - because they're usually sold
locally, by word of mouth. If you see one advertised, it's because
the owner doesn't want to let it go at a bargain price. He wants to
see some return on his effort. Usually he won't get it.

So what he will do, once he has decided to sell the aircraft, is let
it go. Stop doing these repairs for the long haul. Then he'll send
it to the shop for a coat of paint and interior, and it's down the
road.

Our first plane was a '75 Warrior that had been ridden hard and put to bed
wet. Used as a trainer, it had some hangar rash, a mid-time engine, high
total hours, but great paint and a good interior.

Yeah, exactly. Typical.

Michael