Epoxy is really crap for homebuilding

"Sliker" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT), BobR
wrote:


you know if the stuff didn't smell so bad, or take so long to cure, or
wet out the cloth a little better due to it's higher viscosity, I
might be in the group of those who hail the stuff.

There are lower viscosity epoxy resins designed for lamination / wetting
out...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On May 21, 8:06*pm, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way
D0t C0m wrote:
"Sliker" wrote in message

...

On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT), BobR
wrote:

you know if the stuff didn't smell so bad, or take so long to cure, or
wet out the cloth a little better due to it's higher viscosity, I
might be in the group of those who hail the stuff.

There are lower viscosity epoxy resins designed for lamination / wetting
out...

This site argues that epoxy is not a good choice for amphibian
aircraft

http://www.seawind.biz/techtalk.html
..scroll down to "Not all fibreglass is created equal"

John Halpenny

On May 21, 9:16*pm, John Halpenny wrote:
On May 21, 8:06*pm, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way

D0t C0m wrote:
"Sliker" wrote in message

.. .

On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT), BobR
wrote:

you know if the stuff didn't smell so bad, or take so long to cure, or
wet out the cloth a little better due to it's higher viscosity, I
might be in the group of those who hail the stuff.

There are lower viscosity epoxy resins designed for lamination / wetting
out...

This site argues that epoxy is not a good choice for amphibian
aircraft

http://www.seawind.biz/techtalk.html
*..scroll down to "Not all fibreglass is created equal"

John Halpenny

I read it and find it rather strange that epoxy is widely used for
boat construction and none of the boat supply sites that I have seen
ever made mention of any problems. I would think they would be quick
to point out such a major problem.

On Wed, 21 May 2008 14:20:50 -0700 (PDT), BobR
wrote:



Get a good carbon filter mask, some gloves, and good ventilation.

GOOD LUCK and try to have fun anyway.


I've made peace with the stuff for now. I've got a fan pointed up at
the ceiling above where I'm working. It pushes the air downward over
my work area, carrying away the fumes, and me being upwind of it, I'm
not smelling anything.

I can tell the cured epoxy has more toughness than vinyl ester resin
does. Messing around with some leftover, cured epoxy, it kind of
reminds me of stainless steel. Not the brittle type of hardness some
cured resins have, but it feels very strong. And it does wet out
better when the temperature is warmer. It was up into the high 70's in
my shop yesterday, and it flows a lot better at that temp.

I got my pods from Gary Hunter, but noticed he doesn't respond to
emails. I've read other posts on the Canard Zone blog, and at least
one other EZ owner reported the same thing. Do you know if he's out of
the baggage pod business? If so, when I sell my plane, I may keep the
pod, since they aren't available anymore. Not sure if any other
company is making them.

Researching those pods, I ran across something interesting. It seems
if one wanted to build a Long EZ, the plans are available. By first
downloading the "openEZ" file, then purchasing the TERFCD, a complete
set of Long EZ plans is then aquired. The plans have to be taken to a
printer to get the full sized plans, but at least they are available.
I'd be inclinded to build a Cozy MK IV if a canard was in my future,
just to have the extra room. Although, with todays fuel prices, the
Long EZ, with it's smaller engine requirement might get popular again.
There was also a shareware version of the Aerocanard floating around
for a while, but it's been removed from the sites that had it. It
might be still out there somewhere, but from what I've read, it's not
a complete set of plans you could build one from. It's just to let
prospective builders look it over.

On May 22, 10:34*am, Sliker wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2008 14:20:50 -0700 (PDT), BobR

wrote:

Get a good carbon filter mask, some gloves, and good ventilation.

GOOD LUCK and try to have fun anyway.

I've made peace with the stuff for now. I've got a fan pointed up at
the ceiling above where I'm working. It pushes the air downward over
my work area, carrying away the fumes, and me being upwind of it, I'm
not smelling anything.

I can tell the cured epoxy has more toughness than vinyl ester resin
does. Messing around with some leftover, cured epoxy, it kind of
reminds me of stainless steel. Not the brittle type of hardness some
cured resins have, but it feels very strong. And it does wet out
better when the temperature is warmer. It was up into the high 70's in
my shop yesterday, and it flows a lot better at that temp.


The temperature issue would also explain you problems with cure time
as well. Room temperature means warm, not cold. However, when the
temps rise into the 90's which was not uncommon for my working
environment, the slow cure epoxy was really really appreciated. When
I took the builders class on composites one of the demos performed by
the instructor was to use a hammer on cured blocks of both epoxy and
Vinyl Ester. The Vinyl Ester shattered into a thousand pieces while
there was no effect on the epoxy except for a small chip where the
hammer hit. Not sure if that is the same with all epoxy formulations.

I got my pods from Gary Hunter, but noticed he doesn't respond to
emails. I've read other posts on the Canard Zone blog, and at least
one other EZ owner reported the same thing. Do you know if he's out of
the baggage pod business? If so, when I sell my plane, I may keep the
pod, since they aren't available anymore. Not sure if any other
company is making them.


I know Gary but didn't know he was making pods. Haven't talked with
him in a very long time and haven't any idea what he is upto now.

Researching those pods, I ran across something interesting. It seems
if one wanted to build a Long EZ, the plans are available. By first
downloading the "openEZ" file, then purchasing the TERFCD, a complete
set of Long EZ plans is then aquired. The plans have to be taken to a
printer to get the full sized plans, but at least they are available.
I'd be inclinded to build a Cozy MK IV if a canard was in my future,
just to have the extra room. Although, with todays fuel prices, the
Long EZ, with it's smaller engine requirement might get popular again.
There was also a shareware version of the Aerocanard floating around
for a while, but it's been removed from the sites that had it. It
might be still out there somewhere, but from what I've read, it's not
a complete set of plans you could build one from. It's just to let
prospective builders look it over.

I looked at the Velocity and the Cozy a long time ago before I started
on my project. I loved the look of the planes but after getting an
opportunity to flying in a Velocity once, I am glad I decided on a
more traditional tractor design. Nothing concrete to say against the
canards other than my personal preference. I just didn't like the
ground handling and the transition to and from flight mode of the
canards.

On May 22, 4:40*am, "Byron Covey" wrote:
Saying "epoxy" is analogous to saying "steel." *It isn't very specific.

BJC


Very true. The number of formulations and the ability to program in
the desired characteristics desired in the completed product are
endless.

This thread has precipitated a lot of discussion on the Yahoo glidertech
news group
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/glidertech/

Wayne
HP-14 "Six Foxtrot"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

"BobR" wrote in message
...
On May 22, 4:40 am, "Byron Covey" wrote:
Saying "epoxy" is analogous to saying "steel." It isn't very specific.

BJC


Very true. The number of formulations and the ability to program in
the desired characteristics desired in the completed product are
endless.

On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:02:03 -0700 (PDT), BobR
wrote:


I looked at the Velocity and the Cozy a long time ago before I started
on my project. I loved the look of the planes but after getting an
opportunity to flying in a Velocity once, I am glad I decided on a
more traditional tractor design. Nothing concrete to say against the
canards other than my personal preference. I just didn't like the
ground handling and the transition to and from flight mode of the
canards.

True, most of the flight reports I read about the canards leave me not
so excited about the way they fly and handle. Nice flying qualities
sometimes seem to get forgotten. Several pilots that have flown the
Lancairs (2 seat versions) say they have a dead feel and not much fun
to fly. I've been building a Glasair for many years, and just a couple
of years ago I finally got to fly one. The ailerons were nice, but the
elevator felt kind of dead. Makes me want to keep the plane I have and
sell it when it's finished. No one will talk about that subject much,
probably out of fear of making their planes hard to sell. But it's not
such a great system to spend years on end building a plane, only to
find out it flies bad.

On May 22, 7:19*pm, Sliker wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:02:03 -0700 (PDT), BobR

wrote:

I looked at the Velocity and the Cozy a long time ago before I started
on my project. *I loved the look of the planes but after getting an
opportunity to flying in a Velocity once, I am glad I decided on a
more traditional tractor design. *Nothing concrete to say against the
canards other than my personal preference. *I just didn't like the
ground handling and the transition to and from flight mode of the
canards.

True, most of the flight reports I read about the canards leave me not
so excited about the way they fly and handle. Nice flying qualities
sometimes seem to get forgotten. Several pilots that have flown the
Lancairs (2 seat versions) say they have a dead feel and not much fun
to fly. I've been building a Glasair for many years, and just a couple
of years ago I finally got to fly one. The ailerons were nice, but the
elevator felt kind of dead. Makes me want to keep the plane I have and
sell it when it's finished. *No one will talk about that subject much,
probably out of fear of making their planes hard to sell. But it's not
such *a great system to spend years on end building a plane, only to
find out it flies bad.

I have flown two versions of the Kis Cruiser which I am building and
found it to be a very predictable but not the most exciting plane to
fly. On the other hand, I wasn't really looking for an exciting plane
so much as a good cross country plane. Even at that, the performance
figures are good and it is not so large that it flys like a big boat
either. With homebuilts though, you may find measurable differences
in flying qualities between copies of the same aircraft. An example
can be found with different builders of the KIS. Some have determined
that they wanted more elevator control and added a couple of inches to
the trailing edge of their elevators.

I agree with you that spending years building only to find out the
plane you built is not the plane you expected is a very bad deal. I
know at least one RV-6 builder who spent years building a very
beautiful airplane. He put on about a dozen hours of the initial
flight testing and immediately put the plane up for sale. The
aircraft was everthing it was supposed to be but it scared the s__t
out of him and he went back to his Cub. Seemed that what he really
enjoyed flying was low and slow.