IMC without an autopilot

[repost as my original never appeared - apologies if it does]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:

Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad time to
be out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.

What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.


--
Peter R.















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I believe the Piper and century autopilots use the AI. The fact that the STEC uses
the turn coordinator was a large factor in selecting that A/P (Stec-20) for my
airplane. One of the major motivations for adding the AP was the ability to boost my
safety in a partial panel situation, and yes, I do find it very nice for those map
juggling episodes. I don't have a panel mount GPS, only a handheld Pilot-III.
Without the A/P setting that GPS is set what you need to now, go back and add the rest
in little steps later. With the autopilot, resetting the GPS is made a lot easier.
Still, I hand fly much more than most pilots I know who have autopilots. I want to
make sure that I am proficient with handflying when I need it. The big thing the auto
pilot gives me is a back-up to let me turn the flying over to someone (thing) else
while I take care of other things when needed.

Regarding 2 axis, my aircraft is very stable in the pitch axis. Setting the trim
properly holds my altitude very well. Similarly, I can get a constant rate descent by
simply reducing power (4 inches gets me a 500 FPM descent). Sure, I'd like to have
a 2 axis AP, but there are other things competing for my cash that are a higher
priority.

"Peter R." wrote:

[
What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.


--
Peter R.

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--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

My Century 31 uses the AI. It's not very common though.

On the general topic... an AP is jolly handy when flying ANY
cross country. It's kind of hard work to fly a long xc without
one. However autopilots are so fickle that you'd better be
able to hand fly without worrying about it! My experience
(in several aircraft) is that they are down as much as not.
Also when the going gets really tough you want to hand fly.
If you're not comfortable hand flying on top or in smooth
cloud, you're really going to be in trouble when you hit
mod-to-sev turbulence in a front and the ap can't handle it.

My policy is to use the ap in good conditions on long flights,
and to hand fly on training flights.

John

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
[repost as my original never appeared - apologies if it does]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:

Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it
may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad
time to
be out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.

What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither
rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.


--
Peter R.















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Newsgroups
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Peter R. wrote:
[repost as my original never appeared - apologies if it does]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:


Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad time to
be out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.


What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

Two examples that I am familiar with are Piper Autocontrol III-B (had one in my
previous airplane) and Century 21 (have one in my current airplane). There's a
"pickoff" on the AI. If either the AI or the suction go south, the autopilot
will attempt to follow the dying AI.


If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.

I agree. All-electric is better than having an autopilot that relies on the
vacuum instruments. In my airplane, I've added the AeroAdvantage dual-rotor
vacuum pump to give myself a little bit of redundancy in the vacuum supply.
Doesn't help if the instrument fails, though.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply.

Jon Kraus wrote
Just curious as to opinions about flying in IMC without an autopilot?
Does an autopilot make flying in the clouds safer or is it just a crutch
for the lazy?
For myself being new to IFR flying I feel safer knowing that if needed I
could turn the autopilot on. Maybe it is a false sense of security...

For the first two years I owned my twin, I had no autopilot. I would
routinely launch into low IMC, single pilot, fly for hours in IMC, and
shoot an approach. It was really not a big deal.

Eventually I put the autopilot in. I find that on short trips, I
rarely use it. However, on very long trips where I might spend 5-10
hours in the plane, it's great to be able to turn it on and relax,
listen to the CD player, and rest for a couple of hours. It's not
really a safety item - it's a range extender.

I do not use the autopilot in IMC. I get so little of it (only about
15-20 hours a year) that I'm not giving any of it away to the
autopilot. I think I've turned the autopilot on in IMC twice in the
two years I've had it, for a combined total of maybe 5 minutes.

If you get into an unusual attitude, turning the autopilot on may not
help much. In my case, it caused a divergent oscillation in pitch
that had to be damped out by hand (I do not have altitude hold). In
turbulent IMC (which is most IMC on the Gulf Coast) the autopilot
provides a rough ride - I prefer to fly myself. I'll be honest - I
probably underuse the autopilot. I don't trust it any more than I
would trust an instrument pilot who flew fixated on the attitude gyro
without ever crosschecking - which is exactly how the autopilot flies.

I have seen pilots become autopilot-dependent, and unable to handle
the workload of a normal IFR flight without it. That scares me, and I
guess that's the reason I don't normally turn the A/P on in IMC. I've
developed my skills to a fine edge; I don't want to dull it.

Michael

Fatigue is a sneaky killer, because you do not realize how severely your
mental processes and physical reactions have been affected. I'll take safety
over macho any day in the week.

Bob

"SFM" wrote in message
...
Last trip through the clouds was like being in a ping pong ball, I was
going
through ORD airspace and spent a little under an hour flying by hand even
though I had the autopilot. I just wanted to get some good practice in
with
no vis. I shot a VOR A approach into my home airfield and broke out about
1400 AGL landed fine put the airplane away and then was so tired I had my
spouse drive home where I then took a 2 hour nap. It was real work, next
time autopilot!

Scott

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-------------------------------------
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:A02cc.183588$_w.1847277@attbi_s53...
The autopilot can fly the airplane more smoothly than I can, so if I
have
one, I use it. Hand-flying in the clouds for more than 30 minutes or so
takes a lot out of me, so if I am going to be solid for any length of
time
I
want an autopilot.

Bob Gardner

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
Just curious as to opinions about flying in IMC without an autopilot?
Does an autopilot make flying in the clouds safer or is it just a
crutch
for the lazy?
For myself being new to IFR flying I feel safer knowing that if needed
I
could turn the autopilot on. Maybe it is a false sense of security...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

If you turn the autopilot on while in an unusual attitude, it will not
return you to upright flight. All autopilots know is what you tell them, so
you do not turn one on until the airplane is trimmed to hold altitude in
level flight.

Bob Gardner

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
Well, it would seem an interesting scientific question as to whether the
introduction of autopilot indeed led to fewer IMC accidents. It seems
that one could appeal to the accident data history and find out.

I feel safer knowing that I have an autopilot, but that does not mean
that I am. For example, I doubt that if I got the plane into a really
unusual attitude (flying manually), that I could just flip my autopilot
on and everything would be OK. On the other hand, one might
successfully argue that if I habitually use my autopilot, the chances of
getting into an unusal attitude are lower.

In short, I do not think that this question can be answered by appeal to
intuition; facts based on data would be good here.

-Sami

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...

Just curious as to opinions about flying in IMC without an autopilot?

An autopilot is nice; but for years, in military and private a/c, we
didnt have them, and we got along just fine.


And disorientation in IMC lead to a lot of people not "getting along
fine",
but rather splattering themselves over the landscape.

It is surprising/frightening how many pilots do not know where their
autopilot gets its roll input. I have read of cases where a pilot went to
partial-panel because the vacuum pump failed, while their electric turn
coordinator and HSI continued to work just fine.

Bob Gardner

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
[repost as my original never appeared - apologies if it does]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:

Until the autopilot goes TU on you... If it is a conventional A/P, it
may not
work if you lose instrument vacuum or your AI, for example. Real bad
time to
be out of practice hand-flying without and autopilot to back you up.

What general aviation AP uses the AI (attitude indicator)? I have
experience with the Bendix/King KAP-140 and the S-TEC 60-2 and neither
rely
on the AI for input. Are there some that do?

If the aircraft loses suction, the wing leveler feature of the above APs,
which use the electric turn coordinator, would probably make partial panel
flying safer.


--
Peter R.















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Newsgroups
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In following this thread, I can't agree with the idea that prudent use of an
Autopilot can contribute to loss of proficency. I use the AP purhaps 80% of
the time - flying level on a heading. There's not much proficency to gain or
lose during this time.
I would think that we all hand fly the takeoff and landing. Here's where the
practice is useful and needed.

Chuck

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Vincent,

An autopilot is nice; but for years, in military and private a/c, we
didnt have them, and we got along just fine.


There are reasons the accident rates have been on the decline for
decades. Autopilots might be one.

IMO
In the US there have been three major causes of reduction in deaths as I
would present the statistics:

1) Automation of airliners saves about 5000 lives in US common carriers each
year extrapolating pre-1972 deaths hour traveled to the zeros poping up
today.

2) EAA was alowed to assume some ACO regulatory authority in the
construction of homebuilts, which led to a reduction of about 2000 lives per
year.

3) AOPA has become clear in promoting the concept that small GA is not safer
than driving a car. This notion has led to more automation and awareness in
small GA, through operators seeking safer flight to save about 400 lives a
year.