Procedure Turn

"Rod Madsen" wrote in message
.. .

I'm wondering. If you're already at the proper altitude and on the
localizer, why not?


I'm wondering how you came to be on the localizer at the proper altitude
without either a radar vector or a NoPT segment or out of a holding fix.

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" said:
"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...

Are you saying you can't be cleared direct to a navaid unless you're in
radar contact?


Pretty much, not if the navaid is beyond altitude and distance limitations.

Why would you assume that the navaid is ALWAYS beyond altitude and
distance limitations? Surely there must be *some* approaches where you
could be coming in at nearly the right course and altitude if you were
cleared directly to the navaid from a nearby intersection or airway? I
was going to say the NDB 28 at PEO from PTAKI intersection, but realized
that because the navaid is on the field you wouldn't know when to descend
to the MDA without some independent way of knowing you were within 10
miles of the field.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Tech Services - We Aim To Please, We Shoot To Kill"
-- H. Wade Minter, ASR

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...

Why would you assume that the navaid is ALWAYS beyond
altitude and distance limitations?


I'm not. I'm assuming if the navaid is within altitude and distance
limitations and the course via that navaid coincides with the FAC the SIAP
would include an NoPT segment from that navaid because it is easy and useful
to do so.



Surely there must be *some* approaches where you
could be coming in at nearly the right course and altitude if you were
cleared directly to the navaid from a nearby intersection or airway?


Find an example and we'll discuss it.

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Rod Madsen" wrote in message
.. .

I'm wondering. If you're already at the proper altitude and on the
localizer, why not?


I'm wondering how you came to be on the localizer at the proper altitude
without either a radar vector or a NoPT segment or out of a holding fix.

Let's say you're 20 miles out, bearing 162 to HPN (i.e. 5 NW of FARAN,
see http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00651I16.pdf).
The controller says, "Cruise 3000, radar service terminated, frequency
change approved, have a nice night".

A strict interpretation of the rules says that if I wanted to fly the
ILS-16, I should either fly to IGN and fly the NoPT segment from there,
or fly to HESTR and do a PT. A more rational approach would be to just
drop down to 2000 at FARAN, then follow the published procedure from
that point. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that anything else
would be absurd.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Let's say you're 20 miles out, bearing 162 to HPN (i.e. 5 NW of
FARAN, see
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00651I16.pdf).
The controller says, "Cruise 3000, radar service terminated, frequency
change approved, have a nice night".


Couldn't come up with a real-world scenario? Whatever, I'll play, but more
information is needed. What's the routing that brought you to that point 5
NW of FARAN?

Why would you assume that the navaid is ALWAYS beyond altitude and
distance limitations? Surely there must be *some* approaches where you
could be coming in at nearly the right course and altitude if you were
cleared directly to the navaid from a nearby intersection or airway? I
was going to say the NDB 28 at PEO from PTAKI intersection, but realized
that because the navaid is on the field you wouldn't know when to descend
to the MDA without some independent way of knowing you were within 10
miles of the field.

Being cleared direct-to inside an IAF is not in accordance with air traffic policy. If
they want you to go straight-in and in the process bypass a pertinent IAF, then they
must vector you to "final" in accordance with 7110.65, 5-9-1.

Otherwise you, as PIC, are required to begin an IAP at an IAF. If that IAF is followed
by NoPT routing, then you go straight-in. If not and a course reversal is charted you
do the course reversal.

References: FAA legal interpretation from November 1994 (on Summit Aviation CD) and
related AIM material.

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Let's say you're 20 miles out, bearing 162 to HPN (i.e. 5 NW of
FARAN, see
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00651I16.pdf).
The controller says, "Cruise 3000, radar service terminated, frequency
change approved, have a nice night".


Couldn't come up with a real-world scenario? Whatever, I'll play, but more
information is needed. What's the routing that brought you to that point 5
NW of FARAN?

With the exception of the cruise clearance, it's pretty real-world.
Coming from that direction, I've been asked to intercept the localizer
25-30 miles out.

But, OK, if you'll play, I'll play. Remember, though, the game we're
playing is "How should you fly this clearance", not "Let's argue about
whether NY Approach would ever issue a cruise clearance". If you don't
want to play my game, I'm picking up my airplane and my microphone and
going home :-)

How about I had just departed Minard Farms, NY (1NY7). I got my
clearance from FSS on the phone, "ATC clears N-25629 to the White Plains
Airport via direct. Maintain 3000, departure frequency is 132.75,
squawk 1234. Clearance void if not off by 0700. Time now is 0648".

Direct course from 1NY7 to HPN is 170. By the time I completed my
initial departure to the west to avoid the high towers east of the
airport, and turned on course, HPN was bearing 162.

At that time, NY Approach finally responded to my radio call and gave me
"Radar contact, 5 southwest of Minard. Proceed on course, maintain
3000". Sometime later, the controller handed me off to 126.4. The
controller on that frequency gave me the cruise clearance quoted above.

At that point, you tune in the AWOS and hear that the weather at HPN is
800 overcast and 5 miles, wind 160 at 10. What would be your course of
action?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

With the exception of the cruise clearance, it's pretty real-world.
Coming from that direction, I've been asked to intercept the localizer
25-30 miles out.

But, OK, if you'll play, I'll play. Remember, though, the game we're
playing is "How should you fly this clearance", not "Let's argue about
whether NY Approach would ever issue a cruise clearance". If you
don't want to play my game, I'm picking up my airplane and my
microphone and going home :-)


Well, if it's "pretty real-world", it means ATC isn't following FAAO
7110.65. There's no benefit to playing the game if everyone isn't playing
by the rules.



How about I had just departed Minard Farms, NY (1NY7). I got my
clearance from FSS on the phone, "ATC clears N-25629 to the White Plains
Airport via direct. Maintain 3000, departure frequency is
132.75, squawk 1234. Clearance void if not off by 0700. Time
now is 0648".

Direct course from 1NY7 to HPN is 170. By the time I completed my
initial departure to the west to avoid the high towers east of the
airport, and turned on course, HPN was bearing 162.

At that time, NY Approach finally responded to my radio call and
gave me "Radar contact, 5 southwest of Minard. Proceed on
course, maintain 3000". Sometime later, the controller handed me
off to 126.4. The controller on that frequency gave me the cruise
clearance quoted above.

At that point, you tune in the AWOS and hear that the weather at
HPN is 800 overcast and 5 miles, wind 160 at 10. What would
be your course of action?


You can't get to that point if everyone is playing by the rules. At the
point ATC terminated radar service you were on a route that required radar
monitoring by ATC. Termination of radar service at that point requires
issuance of nonradar routing.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message

At that point, you tune in the AWOS and hear that the weather at HPN
is 800 overcast and 5 miles, wind 160 at 10. What would be your
course of action?


Contact Approach and ask for an approach clearance.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

Here's a real-world scenario that I've encountered:

VOR 22 approach to GED (Georgetown, DE):

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/publis...s/00935V22.PDF

Coming from the northeast, on the 057 radial inbound to ATR (Victor 308),
Dover Approach says "cross Waterloo at 3000, cleared for the VOR 22 approach".
Since my course is now 237, I'm only three degrees off the final approach
course of 234. There's no "No PT" sector shown, and the charted hold in lieu
of a PT would put me on the 033 radial, with a 23 degree turn at the FAF.
Obviously it makes no sense to do a turn in the hold, and Dover didn't expect
me to, but some people would claim it's required. Is Dover doing anything
contrary to 7110.65?

Barry