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#11
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"Stuart King" wrote in message . com... Yes, but ATC was going to make me hold about 12 miles away, so I would not be able to make a visual contact, and then see and avoid. Well, what's possible and what you experienced are two different things. |
#12
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I was just training someone on position the other day and this came up.
You CAN have more than one aircraft on the visual approach, but you either have to keep them in trail and separated, or get the back one to see the front and follow him in. The latter is not as simple as it seems, as let's say you have one right behind another, by right behind I mean at least 5 miles since that is our separation standard. It's unlikely the trailing aircraft will see the other 5 miles (or more, who runs a bare 5 with someone slowing in front) ahead, so you have to use more and figure in compression. Thankfully there is no missed approach on the front guy so you don't have to worry about him climbing and maybe starting a 180 degree turn shortly after 'missing'. Sometimes more space is built in where radar is questionable, or at an uncontrolled field where landing/cancellation wont be immediate like it would be with a tower, or if it's not a straight-in - time for downwind, etc. The "following the preceding aircraft" thing is great, when you can get it, mostly you cant. About the only way I get it to happen is to get them real close, like one on a 5 mile final and one descending above him head on, at night this works pretty good. The other way is to have one overtake the other, but I have to keep vertical until visual takes over. Or if they are somewhat matched speeds right behind each other, try to get em within 2 miles, again keeping vertical, get visual and clear the back one to follow the front. Here's why you'll get hesitation from the controller, at centers anyway: Nearly every operation like I described above will set off the OEDP, Operational Error Detection Program, or 'snitch', 'squeal a deal', whatever you want to call it. That leads to a non-controller up front calling an occasional controller, your supervisor, who then questions what you are doing. Let's say one of those aint your best buddy and decides to pull a tape and you leave one word out, or the readback was garbled or the pilot read back everything right but one word, etc etc. This has never happened to me, but you can see how some would rather not deal with the hassle and just wait a few minutes more. Like it or not, that's the reality of how it is. Hope that helped, Chris |
#13
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"SeeAndAvoid" wrote in message ink.net... I was just training someone on position the other day and this came up. You CAN have more than one aircraft on the visual approach, but you either have to keep them in trail and separated, or get the back one to see the front and follow him in. The latter is not as simple as it seems, as let's say you have one right behind another, by right behind I mean at least 5 miles since that is our separation standard. It's unlikely the trailing aircraft will see the other 5 miles (or more, who runs a bare 5 with someone slowing in front) ahead, so you have to use more and figure in compression. Use vertical. The second aircraft is more likely to see the first from 1000 feet above than 31,000 feet behind. |
#14
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
Use vertical. The second aircraft is more likely to see the first from 1000 feet above than 31,000 feet behind. That's what he said, 3rd paragraph. JPH |
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