Diesel in a homebuilt?

On Mon, 19 May 2008 06:50:16 +0000, jan olieslagers
wrote:

Lou schreef:
Not that I plan to do this but I was wondering, if one was going to
plan to install a diesel in a homebuilt, what diesel would one put
in?
Lou

Elaborating on earlier replies:

I know of two English designs, both aircraft-specific, both two-stroke:
see www.wilksch.com or www.dair.co.uk
Both are very rare, I never met one except on the maker's demo-planes.
I suspect their pricing is a bit prohibitive.
Also I seem to remember a third English design but have no details.

A couple of car conversions are flying in France, see one at
http://membres.lycos.fr/dieselis (in French only, regrettably)
and another at http://gazaile2.nmr7.free.fr/
both seem to suffer from engine weight.

In Germany, Thielert markets a heavily modified Mercedes diesel,
but this aiming at bigger planes. This engine powers the DA-40
and DA-42, highly successful in Europe these days.

And I once met a guy in Belgium who adapts Subaru petrol engines
mainly for autogyro use, I hope for the day he sets to work
on the Subaru diesel.

Thielert just went bankrupt from what I heard last week.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message
news
On Mon, 19 May 2008 06:50:16 +0000, jan olieslagers
wrote:

Lou schreef:
Not that I plan to do this but I was wondering, if one was going to
plan to install a diesel in a homebuilt, what diesel would one put
in?
Lou

Elaborating on earlier replies:

I know of two English designs, both aircraft-specific, both two-stroke:
see www.wilksch.com or www.dair.co.uk
Both are very rare, I never met one except on the maker's demo-planes.
I suspect their pricing is a bit prohibitive.
Also I seem to remember a third English design but have no details.

A couple of car conversions are flying in France, see one at
http://membres.lycos.fr/dieselis (in French only, regrettably)
and another at http://gazaile2.nmr7.free.fr/
both seem to suffer from engine weight.

In Germany, Thielert markets a heavily modified Mercedes diesel,
but this aiming at bigger planes. This engine powers the DA-40
and DA-42, highly successful in Europe these days.

And I once met a guy in Belgium who adapts Subaru petrol engines
mainly for autogyro use, I hope for the day he sets to work
on the Subaru diesel.

Thielert just went bankrupt from what I heard last week.

True, as also reported on AvWeb, but...

I am obviously a slow learner, becuase it has taken me a bit more that a
half century to learn that "bankrupt", like the term "scape goat" from the
old testament, does not necessarily mean what we have been conditioned to
first presume. I really know less than nothing about German law, but in the
US "bankrupt" can mean just about anything from "they're toast" to "the
accountants require a further audit before proceding". To my eye, as a
layman, the story in AvWeb looked more like they just demanded a further
audit.

I am glad that I don't have any money, or scheduled production, at stake;
especially since any presumption that I might make would have little basis
in fact.

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote

Your location is not obvious from your email. In most of the world,
diesels are available in a wide variety. In the US, where fuel
consumption is only estimated from total mass flow and emission content at
the exhasut, the choices are currently quite limited, and I am really not
very happy with any of the choices. The 2 liter VW (Passat) is an all
iron engine, and about all I know is that it is about 100 pounds heavier
than its gasoline stablemate--which is partially aluminum. There are also
V6 diesels offered in the Mercedes E320 and the Jeep Liberty, but I know
even less about them. There are probably others that I haven't seen, and
Isuzu has said that they will be back in the diesel market when the
regulations have stabilized.

Personally, I really do like the diesel idea--so I plan to take a very
close look if/when any of the lighter small diesels (such as the 2 liter
Mercedes) become available here.

One thing that everyone should keep in mind, is that automotive diesels run
on diesel fuel, and everyone wanting diesel engines for their airplanes is
going to want to use jet fuel.

Jet fuel does not have the good lubricating properties that diesel fuel has,
and may tend to wear out the automotive fuel pumps in short order.

I read somewhere that Thielert spent half of what they spent on
modifications to the engine, in designing a fuel pump that would be durable
enough.

Something to keep in mind.
--
Jim in NC
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:


One thing that everyone should keep in mind, is that automotive diesels run
on diesel fuel, and everyone wanting diesel engines for their airplanes is
going to want to use jet fuel.

Jet fuel does not have the good lubricating properties that diesel fuel has,
and may tend to wear out the automotive fuel pumps in short order.

.....

Something to keep in mind.

This issue was discussed on the Canard Aviation forum a year or so ago.
What I dont remember was if there were lubricity additives that could be
used to make up for this jet a shortcoming (something you spray in the
tank, like they do with Prist for anti-icing)

Peter Dohm wrote:

I am obviously a slow learner, becuase it has taken me a bit more that a
half century to learn that "bankrupt", like the term "scape goat" from the
old testament, does not necessarily mean what we have been conditioned to
first presume. I really know less than nothing about German law, but in the
US "bankrupt" can mean just about anything from "they're toast" to "the
accountants require a further audit before proceding". To my eye, as a
layman, the story in AvWeb looked more like they just demanded a further
audit.

I am glad that I don't have any money, or scheduled production, at stake;
especially since any presumption that I might make would have little basis
in fact.

Peter


Essentially when the legal troubles broke regarding their creative
accounting, the note holders on their loans/bonds called their share
back in (demanded immediate payment).

The company isn't in a position to do that, so it goes in default.. So
you can have a good product, with an otherwise good company, get screwed
over by a few bad apples and place the company in receivership.

I would think the folks who hold the interest in the company could
replace the management and keep on trucking...

Im hoping thats not just wishful thinking.
Dave

Dave S schreef:
Peter Dohm wrote:

I am obviously a slow learner, becuase it has taken me a bit more that
a half century to learn that "bankrupt", like the term "scape goat"
from the old testament, does not necessarily mean what we have been
conditioned to first presume. I really know less than nothing about
German law, but in the US "bankrupt" can mean just about anything from
"they're toast" to "the accountants require a further audit before
proceding". To my eye, as a layman, the story in AvWeb looked more
like they just demanded a further audit.

I am glad that I don't have any money, or scheduled production, at
stake; especially since any presumption that I might make would have
little basis in fact.

Peter


Essentially when the legal troubles broke regarding their creative
accounting, the note holders on their loans/bonds called their share
back in (demanded immediate payment).

The company isn't in a position to do that, so it goes in default.. So
you can have a good product, with an otherwise good company, get screwed
over by a few bad apples and place the company in receivership.

I would think the folks who hold the interest in the company could
replace the management and keep on trucking...

Im hoping thats not just wishful thinking.
Dave

from ther website www.thielert.de
literal copy & paste
The publication of the annual report will be postponed due to the fact
that the annual financial statements for the years 2003, 2004 and 2005
are probably incorrect and possibly void.
/copy

Sounds like creative accountancy indeed.
The product is bound to be allright.
Detail: Thielert is apparently a holding company
(Thielert AG) with several subsidiaries.
The aviation subsidiary Thielert Aircraft Engines
was reported failing April 24th, parent company
Thielert AG went into receivership April 30th.

Morgans schreef:

One thing that everyone should keep in mind, is that automotive diesels run
on diesel fuel, and everyone wanting diesel engines for their airplanes is
going to want to use jet fuel.

Jet fuel does not have the good lubricating properties that diesel fuel has,
and may tend to wear out the automotive fuel pumps in short order.

The lubricity aspect is certainly important. But I'm not so sure
everybody will be wanting to use Jet A1. Just like many recreational
fliers bring their own mogas to the field, I can imagine pilots
bringing jerrycans of off-road diesel (coloured red in my country,
and in many other European countries I believe).
Those with a trailered plane can just stop at a petrol station, of course.

Ideally, both diesel and Jet-A1 could be used.
But with today's fuel prices, everyone makes his own compromise.

Ideally, both diesel and Jet-A1 could be used.
But with today's fuel prices, everyone makes his own compromise.

I'm going to show my ignorance again but Diesel and
Jet a1 can be used in a diesel engine?
Lou

Lou wrote:

I'm going to show my ignorance again but Diesel and
Jet a1 can be used in a diesel engine?

i would refer to the engine's manual to be safe; this can differ from engine
to engine. thielert's centurion 2.0 is certified for both, jet-a1 and
diesel. however, airplane manufacturers may restrict that; diamond's da-40
tdi is certified for jet-a1 only (according to the manual of an aircraft
equipped with the centurion 1.7).
the centurion 4.0 engine is designed for jet fuel only.

another aspect i'm not familiar with is if fuels sold as "diesel" are the
same in europe and the usa. thielert's internet site mentiones diesel fuel
according to european standard EN 590.


uli

On May 19, 10:08*pm, "Morgans" wrote:
"Peter Dohm" wrote

Your location is not obvious from your email. *In most of the world,
diesels are available in a wide variety. *In the US, where fuel
consumption is only estimated from total mass flow and emission content at
the exhasut, the choices are currently quite limited, and I am really not
very happy with any of the choices. *The 2 liter VW (Passat) is an all
iron engine, and about all I know is that it is about 100 pounds heavier
than its gasoline stablemate--which is partially aluminum. *There are also
V6 diesels offered in the Mercedes E320 and the Jeep Liberty, but I know
even less about them. There are probably others that I haven't seen, and
Isuzu has said that they will be back in the diesel market when the
regulations have stabilized.

Personally, I really do like the diesel idea--so I plan to take a very
close look if/when any of the lighter small diesels (such as the 2 liter
Mercedes) become available here.

*One thing that everyone should keep in mind, is that automotive diesels run
on diesel fuel, and everyone wanting diesel engines for their airplanes is
going to want to use jet fuel.

Jet fuel does not have the good lubricating properties that diesel fuel has,
and may tend to wear out the automotive fuel pumps in short order.

I read somewhere that Thielert spent half of what they spent on
modifications to the engine, in designing a fuel pump that would be durable
enough.

Something to keep in mind.
--
Jim in NC
--
Jim in NC

Jim is on target here. The latest scheme is for truckers to aquire JET
A through several tricky means and then blend mineral oil into it at
the rate of 1 quart for 100 gallons of fuel. That adds the lubricity
into it to prevent wear on their fuel systems, the Jet A is not dyed
red so the tax man can't find out and they are able to purchase 10,000
gallons of jet at about half the cost of diesel. Word on the street
is the oil of choice is Aeroshell 100, because of the ashless
dispersents that are blended into it, supposably that prevents weird
things happening to the fuel injection system. Lets see, @ 6 bucks a
quart for the oil that makes it cost 6 cents a gallon to reformulate
Jet A to diesel... Sounds sweet to me. G