Video: When Aerial Refueling Goes Bad

"Eunometic" wrote:

If one accepts your point that autonomous probe movement will upset the pilots
ability to mate with the probe there is then still scope to 'stabilize' the
probe or rather to smooth its behavior when there are gusts around.

Sure. However, dynamic "smoothing" will likely get the basket out of synch with
the airplanes just like unintended autopilot or unbriefed boomer inputs. Static
smoothing methods, e.g., "tuning" of the hose characteristics, might work
better.


What about shifting the paradigm a little. The aircraft automatically or
manually formates at an appropriate spot behind and below the tanker and then
remains stationary while the probe flies itself to the drogue.

I think that automatic stationkeeping would work better with the AF version,
especially with UAVs.

After all, the current concept IS to fly on the tanker, NOT on the drogue! It's
when the pilot tries to fly formation on the drogue that he begins to "chase" it
as the pilot did in the video. When pilots new to air refueling finally "get
it," they wonder why it was so hard in the first place!

One reason the boom method works is that the boom is that the actively flown into the recepitcal.

And it is completely impractical for carrier operations. Boom-capable aircraft cannot operate from carriers. Buddy-store equipped FA-18s can.

Boom refueling is certainly the way to go for the heavies, whose inertia precludes the rapid, close-in corrections needed. Hose-and-drogue is compact and ideal for carrier-based tanking assets, and also can be / is fitted onto those land-based tankers that support probe-configured aircraft, as shown in the video.

--
Mike Kanze

"I prefer my tragedy and despair in limited doses."
- Sherman the shark

"That's what golf is for."
- Hawthorne the hermit crab

Sherman's Lagoon, 4/5/08

"Eunometic" wrote in message ...
On Sep 18, 3:36 am, "Mike Kanze" wrote:
...Proving once again that it's not as easy as it looks. Bow wave from the tankee's nose and burble
from the tanker aircraft are constants that the pilot must factor for a successful basket plug.

It would appear to me that the probe and drogue system is now far more
basic than it needs to be to be and is therefore less effective and
reliable than it should be.

One reason the boom method works is that the boom is that the actively
flown into the recepitcal.

It should be possible to place sensors and controls (flappers, fins or
a basket that can twist to direct itselt) that stabilizes the drogue
and allows it to fly further from the aircraft. Ideally it should
'home' itself towards the probe slightly to help the pilot. A simple
LED lamp with a specific flashing frequency can serve as a homming
point.



Note that the hose failed to retract into the tanker as it should have once the second (successful) plug was made and the basket was shoved forward.

Those of you laughing have likely never tried this in a low fuel state / night situation, with a pitching deck awaiting your recovery. Not anyone's idea of happy fun.

*
* Those of you laughing have likely never tried this in a low fuel state / night situation, with a pitching deck awaiting your recovery. Not anyone's idea of happy fun.

Some aircraft also have multiple drogues at each wingtip.

Also, drogues breakoff, as shown in the video, hose retracts, when you
get back to station, its easy to fit a new one on and you're good to
go.

frank wrote:

Those of you laughing have likely never tried this in a low fuel state / night situation, with a pitching deck awaiting your recovery. Not anyone's idea of happy fun.

Some aircraft also have multiple drogues at each wingtip.

Name one.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Dan" wrote...

Some aircraft also have multiple drogues at each wingtip.

Name one.

Dodging the specifics of the unclear language (multiple drogues ON THE AIRPLANE;
on the wing but not necessarily at the "wingtip"), KC-130s have a drogue on each
wing; and most/all KC-10s have been retrofitted with WARP (Wing Air Refueling
Pod) on each wing in addition to the centerline boom and hose.

Also fuel flow is higher with a boom. About 5000 lbs per min. Important when giving 80,000 or a bunch more to a heavy.
ole nav
"Mike Kanze" wrote in message . ..
One reason the boom method works is that the boom is that the actively flown into the recepitcal.

And it is completely impractical for carrier operations. Boom-capable aircraft cannot operate from carriers. Buddy-store equipped FA-18s can.

Boom refueling is certainly the way to go for the heavies, whose inertia precludes the rapid, close-in corrections needed. Hose-and-drogue is compact and ideal for carrier-based tanking assets, and also can be / is fitted onto those land-based tankers that support probe-configured aircraft, as shown in the video.

--
Mike Kanze

"I prefer my tragedy and despair in limited doses."
- Sherman the shark

"That's what golf is for."
- Hawthorne the hermit crab

Sherman's Lagoon, 4/5/08

"Eunometic" wrote in message ...
On Sep 18, 3:36 am, "Mike Kanze" wrote:
...Proving once again that it's not as easy as it looks. Bow wave from the tankee's nose and burble
from the tanker aircraft are constants that the pilot must factor for a successful basket plug.

It would appear to me that the probe and drogue system is now far more
basic than it needs to be to be and is therefore less effective and
reliable than it should be.

One reason the boom method works is that the boom is that the actively
flown into the recepitcal.

It should be possible to place sensors and controls (flappers, fins or
a basket that can twist to direct itselt) that stabilizes the drogue
and allows it to fly further from the aircraft. Ideally it should
'home' itself towards the probe slightly to help the pilot. A simple
LED lamp with a specific flashing frequency can serve as a homming
point.



Note that the hose failed to retract into the tanker as it should have once the second (successful) plug was made and the basket was shoved forward.

Those of you laughing have likely never tried this in a low fuel state / night situation, with a pitching deck awaiting your recovery. Not anyone's idea of happy fun.