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#1
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Captured A/C Shootdown?
For example the Germans captured many Allied aircraft and test flew and demonstrated them in their own markings. Were any ever shot down? A P-61 shot down a Luftwaffe-flown KG 200 B-17 in early 1945. It had been involved in dropping German agents in American uniforms. The "Böing" was found after crashing and the (7? I think) survivors of the crew gave their captors information about their mission. v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone. |
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#3
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Does anyone know of any captured aircraft from any war that while being test flown by the capturing force was attacked and shotdown its previous owners or allies? The Japanese army's 64th Sentai captured and made airworthy two RAF Hurricanes at Palembang, the Dutch Indies (Indonesia). The vertical tail was painted white after an incident in which other Japanese pilots attacked the Hurricanes. In March 1942 they were flown to Bangkok and then to Chiang Mai in Thailand, where the 64th Sentai was to be based for the final push on Burma. The intention was to use them in "werewolf" raids on RAF bases in Burma. Before this could be carried out, both were destroyed by the AVG strafe of Chiang Mai on March 24, 1942. As it happens, I just finished a page on the Werewolf Hurricanes that I will be posting when I update the Annals of the Flying Tigers on February 1. all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#5
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I had an AF ROTC instructor in the late 50s/early 60s, who was a B-17
pilot. He said that one day, a black b-17 shadowed their squadron and did not respond to calls to join up. They then called in fighters, which shot it down. There is no evidence that the ever Germans did such a thing -- KG 200 used it captured aircraft for other purposes -- but the belief was widespread among US aircrews, Absolutely agree with this - its one of those anecdotes that is believed by nearly everyone, but the only units that operated captured US equipment never flew them in this manner. These turncoat aircraft were a literally priceless commodity and exposing them to their own flak, escorts -and- Luftwaffe fighters, as well as the bristling armada of B-17 formations is just silly - they didn't do it. Yes, the Germans flew various aircraft as "shadows", tailing the bomber formations and reporting on their movements, but this was done primarily by Ju 88 heavy fighters. Wasting a captured B-17 on such a mission would simply not be done. and it was common to shoot at stragglers trying to join up with the formation. Especially, of course, if it was not their own unit. As a straggler was known to be an easy target for enemy fighters, this was a difficult choice... for both sides. Very true and you have to wonder how many US airmen perished because their aircraft were so damaged that they could not keep up with their own groups - slowly being overtaken by other formations, edgy and trigger-happy and suddenly facing an "unfamiliar" B-17 that would 'appear' to be shadowing their movements. Tragic, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Germans sending one of their rare war prizes into a situation where it would be fired upon by literally everyone, with predictable results. v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone. |
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#7
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Wow..this floors me. Were aircrews that worried by fake or captured aircraft that they would shoot at anything not in their formation? _Absolutely_. Go to one of the dozens of 8th AF sites on the net and ask the assembled former crewmen if they would allow a "stranger" to join in with them - that will provide all the confirmation that is required. At any meeting of them, you'll hear about the day, "...a captured B-17 tried to join up with us, but we drove him off...", with predictable results. That said, there are hundreds of events when damaged aircraft WERE allowed to tuck in with other formations, so it all came down to just how rattled the following groups were at the time the 'stranger' showed up. I hope Art is following this thread and comments because this sounds to incredible to believe. Incredible or not... Good look in your search. v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone. |
#8
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Crusader561 wrote:
: Wow..this floors me. Were aircrews that worried by fake or captured : aircraft that they would shoot at anything not in their formation? Unidentified Stragglers trying to join would not always be shot at, but quite often. And on those occasions when stragglers from other formations were allowed to join up, there certainly was tension on both sides -- the pilot of the straggler knew very well that the all the gunners in front of him had him in their sights. Of course gunners would not shoot at anything, but they were trained not to care too much about markings or aircraft types, because in combat these were too hard to identify and a source of confusion. Instead, they were trained to respond to the "behaviour" of aircraft, whether they behaved aggressively or suspiciously. The suspicion that aircraft trying to follow a formation might be flown by Germans, also turned ostensibly US aircraft following a similar pattern of behaviour into potential targets. One can hardly blame crews engaged in extremely dangerous missions for being "worried". Sometimes, as could not fail to happen,the limits of excusable paranoia were exceeded; one bomber group -- IIRC the 100th -- once produced a report complaining that the Germans now not only had their aircraft painted to look like American aircraft, but that they also closely imitated their behaviour. The gunners had fired nevertheless... Emmanuel Gustin |
#9
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Were aircrews that worried by fake or captured aircraft that they would shoot at anything not in their formation? I think it's probably fair to say that most aircrews were so worried about their *survival* that they shot at a lot of stuff not in their formation. all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#10
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Does anyone know of any captured aircraft from any war that while being test
flown by the capturing force was attacked and shotdown its previous owners or allies? I have just heard of a story about a P-47 pilot named Fred Hillis who is supposedly credited with 4 German built aircraft and one German flown American aircraft, another P-47. The enemy flown P-47 was unmarked and had just shot down an American P-47. I had never heard of this incident before and so far Hillis is not mentioned in Olynyk's Stars and Bars or my copy of the American Fighter Aces Album from 1979. I suppose it could be another example of fratricide? John Dupre' |
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