Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.

Thanks Jay,
I shall head over and get joined up.
Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to take
off from work.
Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to see
what happens.

Roy


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh plank
vent on the pilots side.

That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.

The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
and then some. See them he http://www.piperowner.com/

With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that he
http://cherokeeflyin.com/

We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Good point there Jim,
Unfortunately both of the fine mesh vents in the rear seat plank are not
connected to ducts at all.
They just vent cabin air to the area under the seat plank and from there the
stale air should vent via the central belly hole.
But you may have hit on a point.
Although the vents are not ducted I will check if I can see how the air
might flow under the plank.

Thanks
Roy



"Jim" wrote in message
...

Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and right
sides
join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?
Could it be shaped so that the rushing air escaping from the left side is
creating a low pressure area inside the tube on the right side causing air
to enter the exit port and flow into the right side? Like a shallow well
pump forces some water down the well through a venturi to force more water
up the well. What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet
opening
on the bottom of the plane?
Jim

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
blower in between.

Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.

There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
hole in the bottom of the plane.

Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.

That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
impossible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Sounds like a door seal that isn't sealing well. A door seal leaking,
especially along the back edge of the door will, suck air out of the
cockpit (same is true of the pilot's storm window, if you've ever opened
it in flight it creates a considerable suction, in fact there is a SB
that requires a placard warning not to open it over 150 MPH because
doing so creates enough suction to actually break the stock 1/8"
windshields). Being that it is the right side that has the draft,
rather confirms this diagnosis. I have a similar issue with the rear
left seat in my six. The door has a gap at the rear bottom and that
sucks cold air in from the screened air exhaust vents behind the back
seats making that one seat pretty chilly.

"Ray Andraka" wrote in message
...

Sounds like a door seal that isn't sealing well. A door seal leaking,
especially along the back edge of the door will, suck air out of the
cockpit (same is true of the pilot's storm window, if you've ever opened
it in flight it creates a considerable suction, in fact there is a SB that
requires a placard warning not to open it over 150 MPH because doing so
creates enough suction to actually break the stock 1/8" windshields).
Being that it is the right side that has the draft, rather confirms this
diagnosis. I have a similar issue with the rear left seat in my six. The
door has a gap at the rear bottom and that sucks cold air in from the
screened air exhaust vents behind the back seats making that one seat
pretty chilly.


Ray,

Well I think you may have hit the nail on the head.
We have recently replaced the floor mounted round vent seals, fitted new
overhead ducts and flapper valve.
The door seal will be replaced when the bird is painted in Feb and I know it
does not seal well.
So with the exception of the main door and baggage door the ship is pretty
air tight, that may have made the situation worse.

Thanks for the input.

Roy

("Jim" wrote)
Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and right
sides join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?

What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet opening on the
bottom of the plane?


How about using both setting on a shop-vac? ...and some ribbon?

Since work has recently been done, I suspect a disconnected duct piece
somewhere.


Montblack
http://www.aem.umn.edu/outreach/Baseball_Launcher/startrib1.pdf
The HHH Metrodome's vents work just fine. g

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2003/07/26/metrodome_winds_ap/
Same air vent story

Coming in through the cabin outflow/exhaust outlet? That is strange.

Hi Roy!

I second this.

That group has the most knowledgeable group on Cherokees bar none!
Newbees to seasoned AME's, and they all LOVE their Cherokees!

I think this discussion is closing in on UR prob, SOMETHING is
greating a vacuum in your cabin, and the cold air is roaring in to
replace the air being sucked out "somewhere"

How does the VSI respond to quickly closing the vent?

As to why the "left side vs right side"..scratching my bean on that
part...

Dave



On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:02:20 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
wrote:


Thanks Jay,
I shall head over and get joined up.
Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to take
off from work.
Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to see
what happens.

Roy


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
roups.com...
As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh plank
vent on the pilots side.

That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.

The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
and then some. See them he http://www.piperowner.com/

With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that he
http://cherokeeflyin.com/

We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Could it be possible that the cabin roof vent from the tail has an
opening to the empennage and that pressurizes the empennage when you
close the flapper to the overhead outlets? There would also have to be
something blocking the wall grille on the left side of the cabin. The
impact air at cruise may be at high enough volume and pressure to
overwhelm the belly exit vent and the residual volume flows backward
into the cabin via the right wall grille.

Just a thought based on what I've seen in this thread so far.



-----Original Message-----
From: Roy N5804F ]
Posted At: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:28 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
Conversation: Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.
Subject: Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.


Good point there Jim,
Unfortunately both of the fine mesh vents in the rear seat plank are
not
connected to ducts at all.
They just vent cabin air to the area under the seat plank and from
there
the
stale air should vent via the central belly hole.
But you may have hit on a point.
Although the vents are not ducted I will check if I can see how the
air
might flow under the plank.

Thanks
Roy



"Jim" wrote in message
...

Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and
right
sides
join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?
Could it be shaped so that the rushing air escaping from the left
side
is
creating a low pressure area inside the tube on the right side
causing
air
to enter the exit port and flow into the right side? Like a shallow
well
pump forces some water down the well through a venturi to force more
water
up the well. What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet
opening
on the bottom of the plane?
Jim

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening
with
the
blower in between.

Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.

There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee.
This
grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out
a
hole in the bottom of the plane.

Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.

That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi
in
flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out
the
bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming
OUT
of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
impossible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

We have recently replaced the floor mounted round vent seals, fitted new
overhead ducts and flapper valve.
The door seal will be replaced when the bird is painted in Feb and I know it
does not seal well.
So with the exception of the main door and baggage door the ship is pretty
air tight, that may have made the situation worse.

Ray's theory seems plausible. Just beware that putting on a new door
seal alone might not solve your door-seal problem. It sure didn't
with our old Warrior's door.

The Cherokee door is held on with two light-weight hinges that can (and
often will) be easily bent over time. (In my experience, EVERY
uneducated passenger or maintenance worker leans on that door when they
get in/out of the plane.) All it takes is someone leaning heavily on
the door with it wide open, and your door will NOT seal properly when
you close it, no matter what type of foam seal you may apply.

If your door is cockeyed in the opening, there are half a dozen
possible adjustments, some involving shims, others involving bending.
I spent many hours making my Warrior's door airtight, and can give you
some tips if it should come to that.

Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Dave,

I have signed up !

About the only instrument that I have not overhauled in this Archer is the
VSI.
It reads horribly optimistic, like, I have the only Archer ever built that
climbs on the plains here at 1200 FPM.
If I really try, I can make 1500 FPM :-)

I have to admit that I don't know much about the operation of a VSI
appertaining to an Archer :-(
I can't get my head round it at the moment, but could the slight negative
pressure in the cabin affect the VSI ?

Roy

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Hi Roy!

I second this.

That group has the most knowledgeable group on Cherokees bar none!
Newbees to seasoned AME's, and they all LOVE their Cherokees!

I think this discussion is closing in on UR prob, SOMETHING is
greating a vacuum in your cabin, and the cold air is roaring in to
replace the air being sucked out "somewhere"

How does the VSI respond to quickly closing the vent?

As to why the "left side vs right side"..scratching my bean on that
part...

Dave



On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:02:20 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
wrote:


Thanks Jay,
I shall head over and get joined up.
Last year I was intending to go to the Fly-In but ran out of days to take
off from work.
Maybe this year, but intend to do Sun n Fun & OSH so we shall have to see
what happens.

Roy


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
groups.com...
As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh
plank
vent on the pilots side.

That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.

The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
and then some. See them he http://www.piperowner.com/

With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that he
http://cherokeeflyin.com/

We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"