A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old March 20th 17, 06:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 961
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:20:45 PM UTC+3, Andrew Ainslie wrote:
...not to mention that they can't keep up with demand for their $200k gliders, what possible incentive do they have to do this?


I'm not sure that's true.

While manufacturers do tend to have a year or so delay from ordering to delivery, I don't think the queue is getting longer. They are producing gliders at, on average, exactly the same rate as new orders are coming in.

Are they losing potential orders because someone isn't prepared to wait a year, but would buy a new glider today if it was sitting in a showroom? Possibly some, but I don't think it's significant.

Security of employment for skilled workers, and the time taken to train new ones are quite enough to explain the queue. You can't hire someone if you can't guarantee them a year's work.

If someone came along with a firm order for 10000 gliders then they could expand and step up the production rate, with a delay of a couple of years.

No doubt DG is very happy to have a few dozen DG1000/1001 ordered by the world's airforces. but it's not enough to fundamentally change the production equation.
  #62  
Old March 20th 17, 08:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 478
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 1:36:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?


When the PW5s were being built I believe the Euro was in the toilet and Eastern European wages were lagging. When introduced the HPH 304 were 25K. Why can't HPH sell them at that price anymore? First Sparrowhawks with a preproduction down payment were in that price range as well. Maybe we are suffering from double secret invisible inflation. On the other hand how many 304s, PW5s, and Sparrowhawks sold at those prices? Not enough to get anyone sane interested in building new ones. Thankfully soaring runs on the labor of the insane so there is always hope. For laughs prices from the back of America's Soaring Book published 1974: 1-26C(kit) $3,660; 1-26E $5,495; 2-33 $6,995; 2-32 $14,995; ASW-15B $9,300; Libelle $9,350; ASW-17 $14,200; Nimbus II $12,350.
Dammit why can't we have brand new $6,995 2-33s? That'd fix the decline...
  #63  
Old March 20th 17, 08:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

That would fix the decline, along with the SSA incorporating the international rules of soaring and the supporting Grand Prix racing. Simple. Get with the rest of the world!

But since this cockamamie set of rules is "religion" to so many of you, the decline continues.

If you can't explain the way a race is won within 30 seconds or less, and the costs to compete are out of control expensive, then the demise of soaring is the fault of your own.

You are now entering the final glide for Soaring as we know it.
  #64  
Old March 20th 17, 08:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 962
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 3:29:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
That would fix the decline, along with the SSA incorporating the international rules of soaring and the supporting Grand Prix racing. Simple. Get with the rest of the world!

But since this cockamamie set of rules is "religion" to so many of you, the decline continues.

If you can't explain the way a race is won within 30 seconds or less, and the costs to compete are out of control expensive, then the demise of soaring is the fault of your own.

You are now entering the final glide for Soaring as we know it.


Wrong account :-). At least I think so. Sort of hard to keep track!

-Evan / T8
  #65  
Old March 20th 17, 09:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 753
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Chris,

It would be a huge mistake to put your energy into this pursuit. Here's a simple data point. Last year's US Club Class Nationals was held at Wurtsboro. Wurtsboro is an easy one day drive from the major population centers of the Northeast (Washington, Philadelphia, New York, Boston etc.) There are literally hundreds of true Club Class gliders based in this area and dozens of soaring Clubs (the "Club" in "Club Class"). There are thousands of licensed glider pilots as well.

Exactly three Club-Owned gliders showed up. Three.

Why the focus on individual ownership? The inventory/fleet is already here.. It's the qualified/interested pilots who are missing along with the support from Clubs and/or FBOs.

Data point number two. Our club (which sent 2 of the 3 Club gliders to Wurtsboro) has an LS4 and LS3 which we are very liberal with in terms of letting folks bring them to contests. We have over 120 members. Only 9 members flew those 2 gliders all of last year. 4 pilots accounted for 85% of the flying in those ships. Just down the road is an even bigger club which has a large, all-glass fleet including 2 true Club Class racers. They sent exactly zero competitors.

Erik Mann (P3)
ASG-29 and sometimes LS4 driver



On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
This is a good discussion. The closest thing to what you're talking about is the HPH 304C. I recently emailed Sean Franke and asked for a quote and was told that nobody had ordered one since 2014. A bulk order with cheaper US made trailers may be the way to go. The other key component to this is currently there's only 1 Bank that has loans specific to gliders. Yes you can take out a home equity line to partially finance the latest and greatest, but clubs cannot do this. As the Chair of the Growth and Retention Committee I intend to spend some face time to see what can be done for clubs who have at least 50% equity in their glider. Such loans shouldn't require a Guarantor where the glider is new or newly used and worth more than $50k. One option is to have pledges in the event of a default (which isn't quite the same thing as being a Guarantor but ought to still help reduce the risk for a bank). The next question is, who wants to get into the glider Repo business? Hopefully this won't be needed though.

Your feedback is appreciated.

Chris Schrader, Chair of SSA's Growth & Retention Committee


  #66  
Old March 20th 17, 09:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 961
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:50:41 PM UTC+3, chipsoars wrote:
http://all-aero.com/index.php/compon...-19--valiant-t

$19,500 USD


On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 1:36:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?


So, according to http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php, that $19500 in 1975 would be $90,711 now. $19500 in 1976 would be $84827 now.

Which is right about what the HpH 304 costs now.
  #67  
Old March 20th 17, 10:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

That $19,500 is not in today's dollars, so the figure is not as meaningful. Wasn't the ASW-19 a contemporary of the LS-4, a better performing glider. And didn't they try to produce the LS-4, as a club class glider with both fixed gear or with retractable gear after LS went BK? That project failed with a more popular glider than the ASW-19. As pointed out the HPH 304 is along the line of this thread but none have been ordered since 2014.

China produced a very cheap racing sailboat "Flying Tiger", but last time I spoke with an owner they looked great but had too many problems, haven't seen one on the water lately. I frankly do not want anything from China, do not trust their safety record on baby formula, children's jewelry, dry wall, plywood, dog food, cat food................

Gee Wilbur, you took the year off, if you are so sure this will work why don't you buy the tooling and molds find a 3rd world country that you can hire a labor force of children like Nike and build your machines.

As a side note to doing work in other countries, a friend who was general counsel to a very large public company told me a tale of setting up a cigaret manufacturing factory in Russia. They started having trouble contacting the factory so they sent their lead production manager to Russia. When he got there, surprise, the entire factory had been moved to an unknown location and the local government was asking a huge sum to find and return the factory.

If you are so sure this will work, I look forward to seeing your results!


On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:50:41 AM UTC-7, chipsoars wrote:
http://all-aero.com/index.php/compon...-19--valiant-t

$19,500 USD


On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 1:36:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?

  #68  
Old March 20th 17, 10:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 961
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 12:16:17 AM UTC+3, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
That $19,500 is not in today's dollars, so the figure is not as meaningful. Wasn't the ASW-19 a contemporary of the LS-4, a better performing glider. And didn't they try to produce the LS-4, as a club class glider with both fixed gear or with retractable gear after LS went BK? That project failed with a more popular glider than the ASW-19. As pointed out the HPH 304 is along the line of this thread but none have been ordered since 2014.


Non have been ordered in the USA, or none world-wide?
  #69  
Old March 21st 17, 12:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 608
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:36:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?


Material cost by the pound. Labor costs by the hour. Hours are somewhat proportional to wetted area which correlates to pounds - plus mostly fixed labor hours to make all the innards. Add some overhead and a little profit for the OEM and distributor and there's your retail price.

Modern material like carbon fiber cost more per pound than plain old GRP, but you can make gliders smaller and lighter with it so if you do it right the cost goes down. Build them in a lower labor cost country with some manufacturing skills and that's about as cheap as it's gonna get. For the most part you don't save money by using an old airfoil. Sure, you can use cheaper materials if you can make the thicker wing out of GRP instead of carbon, but the whole thing gets heavier and more expensive as a result so it's a losing game these days with modern materials, modern airfoils and CFD design tools.

Take advantage of all of that and you pretty much get the GP 11 out of Poland. 39:1 max L/D and a 260 lb empty weight. Ask Tim McAllister to price you one. They make bigger ones too, but more $$.

As someone posted, building a 1980s standard-class glider today will cost about what a modern 15-meter glider costs less the flaps, which add less than $10,000 - and part of the reason why no one is building standard class gliders anymore. The old days weren't cheaper by design, they were cheaper by compounded inflation. If I take the LS-4 I bought new in 1980 for $26,000 and apply the CPI for the intervening 37 years, I end up at more than $80,000.

The only way to get a new glider for much less is to build a time machine. You can skip 40 years of inflation. Hope you saved some D-Marks though.

Andy
9B
  #70  
Old March 21st 17, 12:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,224
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:50:24 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 12:16:17 AM UTC+3, Jonathan St. Cloud
wrote:
That $19,500 is not in today's dollars, so the figure is not as
meaningful. Wasn't the ASW-19 a contemporary of the LS-4, a better
performing glider. And didn't they try to produce the LS-4, as a club
class glider with both fixed gear or with retractable gear after LS
went BK? That project failed with a more popular glider than the
ASW-19. As pointed out the HPH 304 is along the line of this thread
but none have been ordered since 2014.


Non have been ordered in the USA, or none world-wide?


Does the HPH 304 S|SJ|E Shark count? If so, then they are selling. A
304SJ arrived on our club field in the UK last year and another two are
due this year of which, IIRC, one is an E (FES) version.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.