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opinions on a K13



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 28th 04, 01:40 AM
Robert Richards
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At 23:30 27 April 2004, Vaughn wrote: Well Robert; I don't know about your relative
flying skills or clubmanagement skills, but Scott certainly has the edge
on coherency.My posting got munged for some reason. Not a lot I

can do about that!



  #12  
Old April 28th 04, 01:48 AM
Robert Richards
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At 00:06 28 April 2004, Mrw wrote:Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours
Robert?Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!Not at all. Of course someone is entitled to ask peoples

opinions. But it isn't helpful when they slag off (albeit
unintentionally) someone who has put in some considerable
effort for us.You can see why that is unhelpful.That's all I have to say on the subject.



  #13  
Old April 28th 04, 06:28 AM
elZee
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Scott Macleman" wrote in message
...
Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.


Keep the ASK13.

I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into a lot
more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for
training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance of a
familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance costs
will be higher too I'm sure!

Keep the ASK13

HTH

elZee


  #14  
Old April 28th 04, 08:32 AM
Graeme Cant
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mrw wrote:
Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours Robert?
Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!


It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real problem is something
like this:

Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds available from the
Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops to jump through and
have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric K13 does not
qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting the purchase of
a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might well qualify.

In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant application and
successfully sounded out his mates who were operators on the Union
Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.

Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents on the Union
(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on holidays to sunny
places as delegates attending conferences on student poverty and
homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however. Scott has
successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.

Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but Robert can't kick
contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer. The majority of
respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick with the K13 and
stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without a trailer.

Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for nothing. When the
Council debates the GC's application, all the replies from ras will be
quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write it up as an
assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!

Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot (you won't be doing
much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily checks for years).

Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep the K13.
Best of luck with your next project.

Graeme Cant

"Robert Richards" wrote in
message ...

Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out
with the rest of the committee before making statements
in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the
committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've

caused a

lot of embarrassment and caused

me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could


make it clear that you

are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on


here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student

union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record

straight,

the coments below

are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt


15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a member of the

council for
my University gliding

club - fairly new compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey
i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable
trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in
order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether


it would be worth it - because

the deal we have been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and
there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the


university. selling the k13 not having a trailer with it.Just

wondering
what some of the more experienced people

think.Thanks,


  #15  
Old April 28th 04, 08:59 AM
Bert Willing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

As an instructor having trained ab initio students in Ka7, Ka13 and Janus,
your remark seems completely unfounded to me. Somebody starting his training
on glass learns the same things in the same laps of time as if he would
start on wood & fabric.
And maintainance on a glass ship is a lot easier than wood & fabric.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"elZee" a écrit dans le message de
...

"Scott Macleman" wrote in message
...
Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.


Keep the ASK13.

I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into

a lot
more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for
training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance

of a
familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance

costs
will be higher too I'm sure!

Keep the ASK13

HTH

elZee




  #16  
Old April 28th 04, 02:40 PM
Don Johnstone
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.
To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob)
If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.
In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.

At 07:42 28 April 2004, Graeme Cant wrote:
mrw wrote:
Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than
yours Robert?
Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!


It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real
problem is something
like this:

Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds
available from the
Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops
to jump through and
have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric
K13 does not
qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting
the purchase of
a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might
well qualify.

In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant
application and
successfully sounded out his mates who were operators
on the Union
Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.

Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents
on the Union
(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on
holidays to sunny
places as delegates attending conferences on student
poverty and
homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however.
Scott has
successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.

Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but
Robert can't kick
contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer.
The majority of
respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick
with the K13 and
stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without
a trailer.

Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for
nothing. When the
Council debates the GC's application, all the replies
from ras will be
quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write
it up as an
assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!

Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot
(you won't be doing
much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily
checks for years).

Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep
the K13.
Best of luck with your next project.

Graeme Cant

'Robert Richards' wrote in
message ...

Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff
out
with the rest of the committee before making statements
in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on
the
committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
as being the position of the committee as a whole.As
it is you've

caused a

lot of embarrassment and caused

me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps
in future you could


make it clear that you

are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth
you expect anyone on


here tod know anything about getting a grant from
our student

union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to
set the record

straight,

the coments below

are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres.
NUGCAt


15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a
member of the

council for
my University gliding

club - fairly new compared to most of the people in
this forum, but hey
i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly)
serviceable
trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer,
and in
order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether


it would be worth it - because

the deal we have been offered for the acro is not
massivly great. and
there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the


university. selling the k13 not having a trailer
with it.Just

wondering
what some of the more experienced people

think.Thanks,






  #17  
Old April 28th 04, 03:34 PM
W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It may well be that in the rather specialised world of the Air Training
Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils aged under 21. Of
the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many went on to get their
Silver 'C'?

However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a Grob, in fact I think
they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless, Lasham still continue to
use the K13 as their main training glider, they have no plans to replace
them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have 1 Duo-Discus, 1
ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit on a DG1000, this
is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing the order to a turbo
DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and the K13s quite long
enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from the maintenance point
of view.

Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach them to soar, fly
cross-country and win competitions at world level so they must be doing
something right!

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...

The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.

To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob).

If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.

In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.






  #18  
Old April 28th 04, 03:35 PM
Ben Flewett
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don’t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Having said that… If all you want to do is bash the
circuit – stick with the 13. No better than glass
once you are downwind.



At 05:42 28 April 2004, Elzee wrote:

'Scott Macleman' wrote in message
...
Just wondering what some of the more experienced people
think.


Keep the ASK13.

I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are
going to get you into a lot
more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more
forgiving platform for
training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer
and maintenance of a
familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of
an FRP ship. Insurance costs
will be higher too I'm sure!

Keep the ASK13

HTH

elZee






  #19  
Old April 28th 04, 05:15 PM
mrw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I certainly hope either Scott or the prickly Robert will post as to how
this is resolved. This is better than any soap opera on the tee vee

RAS WANTS TO KNOW!!!!!!!!



"Scott Macleman" wrote in message
...
I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new
compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.

We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.

we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we
will need to sell our K13.

I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have
been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several
drawbacks.

mainly -

asking for a grant from the university.
selling the k13
not having a trailer with it.

Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.

Thanks,



  #20  
Old April 28th 04, 06:39 PM
Don Johnstone
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sorry Bill, the ATC world is not specialised, it just
teaches people the basics, enough to fly solo, that
is all it sets out to do and it achieves it with the
Grob Acro. My point was that it is no more difficult
to be taught to fly in an Acro than it is in a K13.
The Acro is nearer to most GRP single seaters which
your soaring members will fly.

One question, as an instructor you are given the choice
between sitting for 8 hours in the back seat of a K13
or a Grob Acro. Which would you choose, for me there
is no contest, sitting for any length of time in the
K13 would require a large spend on an osteopath.

The question was not about a fleet but which was more
suitable for a clubs only 2 seater. For my money, and
I have flown most the Acro is the most suitable.

I learned to fly in a T31 and instucted in them for
many years, I would not recommend them for training
today.

As an aside the best and most effective 'glider' I
have flown for teaching is without doubt the Venture,
so I am not against wood or metal and fabric per se.
Of course the CAA rules do not allow their use in that
way in the wider world.

DJ 401

At 14:48 28 April 2004, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\. wrote:
It may well be that in the rather specialised world
of the Air Training
Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils
aged under 21. Of
the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many
went on to get their
Silver 'C'?

However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a
Grob, in fact I think
they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless,
Lasham still continue to
use the K13 as their main training glider, they have
no plans to replace
them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have
1 Duo-Discus, 1
ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit
on a DG1000, this
is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing
the order to a turbo
DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and
the K13s quite long
enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from
the maintenance point
of view.

Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach
them to soar, fly
cross-country and win competitions at world level so
they must be doing
something right!

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove 'ic' to reply.


'Don Johnstone' wrote in
message ...

The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.

To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust.
(I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob).

If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.

In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13
was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob
is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.










 




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