opinions on a K13

In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don’t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?
--
Mike Lindsay

Don Johnstone wrote:
The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.
To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob)
If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.
In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.

At 07:42 28 April 2004, Graeme Cant wrote:

mrw wrote:

Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than
yours Robert?
Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!

It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real
problem is something
like this:

Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds
available from the
Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops
to jump through and
have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric
K13 does not
qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting
the purchase of
a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might
well qualify.

In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant
application and
successfully sounded out his mates who were operators
on the Union
Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.

Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents
on the Union
(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on
holidays to sunny
places as delegates attending conferences on student
poverty and
homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however.
Scott has
successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.

Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but
Robert can't kick
contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer.
The majority of
respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick
with the K13 and
stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without
a trailer.

Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for
nothing. When the
Council debates the GC's application, all the replies

from ras will be

quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write
it up as an
assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!

Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot
(you won't be doing
much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily
checks for years).

Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep
the K13.
Best of luck with your next project.

Graeme Cant


'Robert Richards' wrote in
message ...


Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff
out
with the rest of the committee before making statements
in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on
the
committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
as being the position of the committee as a whole.As
it is you've

caused a

lot of embarrassment and caused


me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps
in future you could

make it clear that you


are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth
you expect anyone on

here tod know anything about getting a grant from
our student


union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to
set the record

straight,

the coments below


are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres.
NUGCAt

15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a

member of the

council for

my University gliding


club - fairly new compared to most of the people in

this forum, but hey

i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly)

serviceable

trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer,

and in

order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether

it would be worth it - because


the deal we have been offered for the acro is not

massivly great. and

there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the

university. selling the k13 not having a trailer

with it.Just

wondering

what some of the more experienced people


think.Thanks,





I fly at a club that has a fleet of one K13 and one Grob 103 TwinAstir (much
maligned earlier version)

Some comments -
In weak conditions the Grob sits in the hangar, she is just too heavy to man
handle on the airfield bashing circuits for it to be fun. The K13 thermals
better in lighter broken lift so everyone wants to be in the K13 on marginal days.
The level of discomfort in the rear seat is similar in the TwinAstir because of
the strange shape of the back rest. From the front seat I personally prefer the
Grob, because I am a great lump with long legs and the bigger cockpit is more
comfortable.
The K13 requires and gets more maintenance, with recovering and the like, but
after decades of service this is a solid investment for the club. Once you take
the capital costs into consideration, and the fact that some club members
actually want to do the maintenance work (for free, because they enjoy it) the
K13 is actually slightly cheaper to keep than the Grob.
Both of the gliders have trailers, but we would never consider being out of
gliding range of the field with the K13... It might take the whole club to
recover her from a field.
On a strong day when the mountains beacon, there is a queue for the Grob.

For what it is worth the Grob performs similarly to my Standard Cirrus on cross
country. Not bad for a "plastic pig".

If there had to be only one - I suspect it would be the K13, having both is
great. Having a Twin II, so we could still do the aerobatics in the twin would
be best.

Mark Davies wrote in message
If you actually knew anything at all about this you
would know that the nickname of plastic pig was actually
regarding the earlier Twin Astir and NOT the completly
different Twin II Acro on which thousands of people
have learnt to fly.

Well actually my club has BOTH a Twin II Acro and a Twin Astir and,
with many hours in both, I find the Astir to be much nicer to fly! The
ailerons on the Astir, though just as heavy as the Acro, actually ROLL
the aircraft and the spoilers don't snatch the way they do on the
Acro. Admittedly the back seat on the Acro is a huge improvement on
the Astir.

And as for the AD banning aerobatics,
again if you knew what you were talking about you would
know that the Twin II Acro limitations have been lifted
to allow it to do the same aerobatics (including spinning)
as a K13, only rolling and inverted is still currently
unallowed without modification and this type of flying
is definitaly only for those who have recieved training
in this fine art.

You're right about the A.D of course. It has been modified to allow
these manouvers. The more advanced aerobatics it was certified for are
still off limits which means that while we paid for a fully aerobatic
trainer we no longer can use it as such. The point I was trying (and
failing) to make was that, at the moment, the Acro wouldn't provide
them any more functionality than a K13 in this area. Oddly enough, in
speaking up for the Acro you made this point much clearer thans I did.
As for spinning, good luck. the Acro's very docile in the stall but
difficult to get a good spin out of.

Let go of your inhibitions and move with the times
or else you may stay nowhere for ever!.

Actually I own a glass single seater and I feel the best two seater
I've ever flown is the Duo Discus so I'm hardly mired in the past. I
just don't like the Acro that much and don't see how this deal would
be of any benefit to this club.

I think what many have overlooked is that even today with the K-13 still
increasing in value (no club that I know wants to give one up!) it is still
a great trainer fully capable of taking a student from first flight to early
X/C (no one says you have to see how quick you get it over with!), an
enjoyable Sunday afternoon flyer, and safe.....it's also not yet so
expensive we have to restrict who can fly it or raise the dues or rental
fees to own it....sure a Grob is nice enough and feels more like an old
Buick than a sports car, the K-13 is almost like the family wagon that did
take us all on vacations and still will....the K13 will fly slower and stay
up when the rest of the fleet is on the ground..
Most pilots will eventually own their own single seaters anyway (at least in
the USA) and progress beyond the 2 seat trainer, so if they spend less on
more K13's the logic is they will have better access to club members and
more members....makes sense to me at least....
regardless....go fly!
tim


I fly at a club that has a fleet of one K13 and one Grob 103 TwinAstir
(much
maligned earlier version)

Some comments -
In weak conditions the Grob sits in the hangar, she is just too heavy to
man
handle on the airfield bashing circuits for it to be fun. The K13 thermals
better in lighter broken lift so everyone wants to be in the K13 on
marginal days.
The level of discomfort in the rear seat is similar in the TwinAstir
because of
the strange shape of the back rest. From the front seat I personally
prefer the
Grob, because I am a great lump with long legs and the bigger cockpit is
more
comfortable.
The K13 requires and gets more maintenance, with recovering and the like,
but
after decades of service this is a solid investment for the club. Once you
take
the capital costs into consideration, and the fact that some club members
actually want to do the maintenance work (for free, because they enjoy it)
the
K13 is actually slightly cheaper to keep than the Grob.
Both of the gliders have trailers, but we would never consider being out
of
gliding range of the field with the K13... It might take the whole club to
recover her from a field.
On a strong day when the mountains beacon, there is a queue for the Grob.

For what it is worth the Grob performs similarly to my Standard Cirrus on
cross
country. Not bad for a "plastic pig".

If there had to be only one - I suspect it would be the K13, having both
is
great. Having a Twin II, so we could still do the aerobatics in the twin
would
be best.

Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?

An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can assure you there is
no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds up quite fast,
and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as possible.
But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin. It demonstrates
spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that the K13 allows
to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic gilders cannot?
Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the lightest wind, you
will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example, you can still go
against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.


--

Michel TALON

The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG ..

From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little
too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly
tough as an airframe..

Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c
department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can
be hard work to soar in weak conditions..

My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at
Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago
...

Mark


At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So
it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?

An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can
assure you there is
no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds
up quite fast,
and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as
possible.
But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin.
It demonstrates
spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and
contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France
people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21
or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that
the K13 allows
to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic
gilders cannot?
Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the
lightest wind, you
will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example,
you can still go
against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.


--

Michel TALON

The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG ..

From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little
too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly
tough as an airframe..

Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c
department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can
be hard work to soar in weak conditions..

My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at
Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago
...

Mark


At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So
it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?

An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can
assure you there is
no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds
up quite fast,
and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as
possible.
But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin.
It demonstrates
spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and
contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France
people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21
or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that
the K13 allows
to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic
gilders cannot?
Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the
lightest wind, you
will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example,
you can still go
against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.


--

Michel TALON

At 10:06 29 April 2004, Mark Stevens wrote:
The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG ..

From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little
too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly
tough as an airframe..

Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c
department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can
be hard work to soar in weak conditions..

My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at
Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago
...

Mark


At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So
it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?

An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can
assure you there is
no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds
up quite fast,
and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as
possible.
But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin.
It demonstrates
spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and
contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France
people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21
or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that
the K13 allows
to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic
gilders cannot?
Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the
lightest wind, you
will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example,
you can still go
against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.


--

Michel TALON





At my club we still retain a K-13 for spin training
as our K-21's are almost impossible to spin. We checked
with the BGA some time ago and they confirmed that
it is a requirement to undergo full spin training prior
to solo. We also explored the possibility of using
the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of
our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification,
manuals etc. However we're getting a DG-1000 and so
we will then sell the K-13. It will be sad to see it
go; we've crunched it around since 1968 and it's still
going strong. Many of our instructors still prefer
to instruct in it. Provided you do in house maintainance
on the cheap with club members then your costs are
lower. One thing we are finding is the size of your
average pilot has grown since 1968 and 40% don't fit
in it. We operate alongside Vikings (Grob Acro) and
they are a fine trainer although the undercarriage
is not as strong as either the K-13 or K-21.

Chris Marren wrote:

We also explored the possibility of using
the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of
our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification,
manuals etc.

In Switzerland, it's certificated, and there is a weight calculation
table. Try to ask AS directly for it and refer to Switzerland.

BTW: It spins beautifully with the proper tail weight.

Stefan

When London Sailplanes were still the Schleicher agents they imported at
least one K21 fitted with the tail weight kit, I flew it with the kit.
They also converted one of their machines, EDW, the one which was sold to
University College London and later went to Halton, where I believe it is
now.

You could ask the people at Halton how they find it, or go there to try it
yourself.

I believe that Caracole Soaring in California use K21s with the tail weight
kit for spin training.

Both Dunstable and the Midland Club, Long Mynd went to a K21 fleet for
training, but retain a K13 used for spin training.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Chris Marren"
wrote in message ...

At my club we still retain a K-13 for spin training
as our K-21's are almost impossible to spin. We checked
with the BGA some time ago and they confirmed that
it is a requirement to undergo full spin training prior
to solo.

We also explored the possibility of using
the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of
our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification,
manuals etc.

However we're getting a DG-1000 and so
we will then sell the K-13. It will be sad to see it
go; we've crunched it around since 1968 and it's still
going strong. Many of our instructors still prefer
to instruct in it. Provided you do in house maintenance
on the cheap with club members then your costs are
lower. One thing we are finding is the size of your
average pilot has grown since 1968 and 40% don't fit
in it. We operate alongside Vikings (Grob Acro) and
they are a fine trainer although the undercarriage
is not as strong as either the K-13 or K-21.