Tomcats gone by fall of 2006

(Pechs1) wrote in message ...
I knew what you meant John, I was posting for those w/o real world experience
that the days of being w/i visual range of a bad guy are not over. In fact,
with stealth, multi A/C looking similar, poor GCI, and the fog of war, visual
engagements are going to increase, not decrease.

This is interesting. I always got the impression that I didn't believe
visual range fighting was a thing of the past because I'm completely
lacking in real world experience. Sounds like there may actually be
another reason :-)

How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual range
engagement?

The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the target
even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or
in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties,
early sixties magic missiles optimism.

Rob

robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual range
engagement? BRBR

None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will occur.
The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during the
day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and F-35s
will also.

robvr The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the target
even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or
in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties,
early sixties magic missiles optimism. BRBR


Sure, assuming perfect conditions and perfect GCI, perfect information. Even in
training, on TACTS ranges, this doesn't happen. Don't expect it to happen in
the real thing.

If the bad guys put up hundreds of anything, some will get thru.

I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of us,
with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can predict
what happened.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 21 Jun 2004 12:59:26 GMT, Pechs1 wrote:

robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual range
engagement? BRBR

None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will occur.
The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during the
day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and F-35s
will also.

The Air Force is currently testing a grey F-117 for daylight use so it
looks like the old thinking of stealth only at night is going by the
wayside.

--

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the target
even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or
in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties,
early sixties magic missiles optimism.

Three huge differences are the vastly improved missiles available today,
vastly improved radar/avionics, and most important, the vastly improved
non-cooperative target recognition systems available (that allow you to ID
planes without using IFF- e.g., using your radar to identify their engine
type). As NCTR is about as classified as it gets with jets, I don't know
any specifics, but the word is that the newer jets (Super Bug, Raptor, F-35)
all have pretty darn spiffy NCTR. That solves a lot of the ROE problems
that crippled BVR/magic missile combo in the sixties/Vietnam. Combine that
with increased use of datalinks and AWACS, and you have a much more reliable
employment of BVR techniques. The stats since GW 1 onwards bear out that
fact (and those were mostly with -15s and -16s).

Tony

Marine F-18 friend got to play with the Germans and their Mig-29's a
couple
years ago. Somewhat similar match as the F-18 vs F-16. If they threw out
the anchor and used the Bug's superior radius versus the Mig's somewhat
superior rate, the Mig driver would call a shot well off boresight, and
well
before the Bug driver reached a firing solution. Given an all-aspect
missile in the air, energy and airspeed (creating some tracking problems
for
the missile and displacement of your target aircraft from the
countermeasures you'll deploy) versus no energy and no airspeed (a point
source of IR in the sky) would be the preferred state. Hardly ideal, but
preferred.

*interesting story snipped*

Here's the results from the Mig-29 vs. F-16 engagements (yeah, it's AF, but
it's a good read):

http://www.510fs.org/CodeOne/c1s4ff.htm

They rate the -29 as being superior to the -18 in the slow speed (and
the -16, although the latter beats it in the high speed). Their conclusions
also run counter to my idea of cranking ASAP, but I'm curious how much of
that is due to the performance of the R-73 (impressive compared to AIM-9M,
but not so much to the Python-4 or -9X; 45 degrees -73 vs. roughly 90
degrees -4,-9X) and the awful avionics of the -29. Those "across the
circle" shots the Viper drivers talked about respecting are exactly where
the -4 and -9X are supposed to shine, and combined with a better jet, might
further edge the feasibility of BFM out the window. With my lack of hard
data, I'd firmly agree that keeping your speed up is the best idea now
(against the -73), but I wonder how much the new generation of planes and
missiles will change that. Cheers,

Tony

I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of
us,
with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can
predict
what happened.

Hmmm, four Tomcat pilots...I'll predict that when they landed they said
the score was 80 - 0 . How did they get so many planes in the air at the
same time? I would imagine managing airspace would get very tricky about
then!
On a related note, have you read (and have an opinion on) Tom Cooper's
book about the -14 in Iranian service? Lots of Tomcat a-a engagements there
that you don't find in other sources.

Tony

"Pechs1" wrote in message
...
robvr- How much, if any, use would stealth technology be in a visual
range
engagement? BRBR

None but it will reduce detection ranges to where visual engagments will
occur.
The question is whether or not these costly A/C will be committed during
the
day. If the bad guys choose to fight during daylight, then the F-22s and
F-35s
will also.

robvr The current doctrine/hype seems to be to shoot BVR before the
target
even sees your stealthy plane, whether the target is on the ground or
in the air. I always though that was a bit like the late fifties,
early sixties magic missiles optimism. BRBR


Sure, assuming perfect conditions and perfect GCI, perfect information.
Even in
training, on TACTS ranges, this doesn't happen. Don't expect it to happen
in
the real thing.

If the bad guys put up hundreds of anything, some will get thru.

I flew an exercise in Egypt, we had nearly perfect GCI, in the F-14, 4 of
us,
with working radars. The Egyptians put up 80 Mig 21s..I'll bet you can
predict
what happened.

A short and glorious battle?
Run away?

At least it was a target rich environment.

Tony- Hmmm, four Tomcat pilots...I'll predict that when they landed they said
the score was 80 - 0 . How did they get so many planes in the air at the
same time? I would imagine managing airspace would get very tricky about
then! BRBR

It was a simulated strike of their airfield and the final idea was to get gun
camera film of a Turkey.

It was supposed to be a 4v4, it wasn't.

The Egyptian military really owned everything back then, they could do whatever
they wished. I went to Alexandria for a ROE brief, the only building that
wasn't falling down was the EAF building. We lowly 0-4s were met by an
auditorium of Mig pilots, many general officers with many kills during the two
Israeli wars in 1967 and 1973.

tony- Tom Cooper's
book about the -14 in Iranian service? BRBR


Nope, won't.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

John- A short and glorious battle?
Run away?

At least it was a target rich environment.
BRBR

We dropped our drawers and wallowed around with these guys. Geez, there were
Mig-21s everywhere, probably looked like flys around a trash can.

Great fun and of course we didn't run away. We then went over to the Pyramids,
took some pix and then got into hack for being over the pyramids. Weren't
supposed to fly over them. Oh well, got a great pic tho by my wingy.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer