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#41
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On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:48:01 GMT, "Ed Majden"
wrote: "Alan Minyard" The moon flights were certainly propaganda. There is nothing left to learn from manned lunar shots. I certainly hope that the Chinese will not waste the human lives and tremendous resources that such a mission would entail. You don't know very much about science if you think there is nothing more to learn about going back to the Moon. Leaving Lunar Science aside, the far side of the Moon is an ideal place for a radio telescope as all the man made noise created on earth would be blocked. Also an ideal place for an optical telescope either manned or robotic. NASA is talking of a trip to Mars. Hell, they had better get going back to the Moon safely before they attempt going out further. They don't have the booster capability to even do this today. Ed A radio telescope on the moon? You can't be serious. Do you have any idea how many flights would be required? Al for an optical telescope, earth orbit is far, far more practical. Moon missions are a waste of time and money. Al Minyard |
#42
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"Alan Minyard" A radio telescope on the moon? You can't be serious. Do you have any idea how many flights would be required? Al for an optical telescope, earth orbit is far, far more practical. Moon missions are a waste of time and money. I didn't say it would be easy. Earth based radio telescopes are getting more restricted all the time because of the encroachment of man made noise across the electromagnetic spectrum. The only place to block this "noise" is by placing a radio telescope on the far side of the Moon. As for Moon missions being a waste of time, there is still much to be learned about the geology and origins of the Moon. Hell, we live on Earth and still understand very little about it. Ed |
#43
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"Simon Robbins" wrote in message ...
"Gordon" wrote in message ... I think this flight was a monumental achievement for the PRC, but the postflight interview with the Taikonaut seemed a blast from the past, with party slogans and embedded phrases that show their program is under the Communist banner, intended to spread their message into the reaches of space. That is sad, and I think it detracts from the accomplishment of the Chinese people. That's a rather cynical view. Why should a Chinese Communist not be proud of his country and wish to say so? He's also aware that his future participation is probably dependent on pleasing those in government who hold the purse strings. Funny how when an actress with fake tears cries "God bless America" we assume she's being heartfelt, but when someone from an opposing political idea issues a similar sentiment we automatically assume they're being coached. No, that is a realistic view. Granted that your example of the dewey eyed actress is just about as accurate, but the PRC still seems a bit tied to the old propoganda methods--reminds one a bit of the old "New Soviet Man" crap bandied about in the old USSR. What Gordon was decrying was the attachment of the propoganda byline to what could have been taken domestically (in the PRC) as a proud accomplishment without the hyperbole, which detracts a bit. Brooks Si |
#44
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Andreas Parsch wrote in message ...
robert arndt wrote: There is no "German" space program, it's all European (i.e. ESA). And remember that Germany has been bashed recently for its _lack_ of military enthusiasm. Wrong again Andreas. Any transatmospheric bomber concept (which have been studied by DASA before it was EADS) would be Luftwaffe piloted. We talked about _space launch vehciles_ and not _bombers_. DASA can study as much as it wants, but there never was - nor will there be in the foreseeable future - a German military requirement for a transatmospheric bomber. The Sanger II was considered "dual usage" in the early '90s for launching German military payloads (spy sats/LEO weapons/asats) as well as being the basis for a TAB back in the DASA era. And how do you know what Germany will do in the future? As space becomes more militarized and Europe unites who is to say that Germany won't participate in a much greater role and field hypersonic aircraft/spacecraft with the intent to use as a military deterrent? The Luftwaffe is current lacking in every type of military aircraft category... but is slowly filling the void with the Eurofighter, Airbus tanker conversions, future A400M transport, and design studies for future UCAVs, bombers (updated Airbus proposals), recon aircraft, etc... EADS is currently working on anti-stealth missile technology and is suspected of possessing stealth technology with what is being called the NATO Firefly II black budget aircraft. Second, in case you're not up on the news, Germany has close to 11,000 troops deployed with a pledge of another 2,200 for ISAF and 5,000 ultimately for the newly created NATO NRF (initial contribution of 1,100 with build-up to 5,000 by 2006). Yes, I know. And so what? This has nothing to do with a space program. Your previous post claims Germany was being bashed for lack of military committment yet since 1999 Germany is escalating its troop deployments worldwide.... despite claiming in your own newspapers about downsizing, lack of funding and being stretched too thin. These figures do not count any German/NATO/UN contribution of troops to Iraq in the event an agreement is reached. The current German goverment has repeatedly and firmly stated that there will be no German troops in Iraq. The support for this in the general public is 70%, so even the opposition doesn't dare to suggest otherwise. The opposition? Schroeder was the person who gave his unwavering "support" to the US in the fight against terrorism but broke his word during OIF. Then after the war was over Germany has been negotiating with Washington to possibly reconsider the troop question "if" the US were to cede authority in Iraq over to the UN and allow German business contracts to be reestablished. FYI, German GSG-9 and KSK are already in Iraq, protecting German businessmen, diplomats, etc...with GSG-9 participating in a firefight a few months ago (no casualties) when their convoy was attacked. You are full of it with the "lack" nonsense since even the Heer complained about rearmament AGAIN in 2003. The first time was in 1999 over the Balkans. And FYI, German IDZ supersoldiers are operating in the Balkans since July 2002. Again, this has _nothing_ to do with space program. And by the way, they're not "supersoldiers" ... the usual term would be "Special Operation Forces". You obviously don't know about the Infanterist Der Zukunft (IDZ) supersoldier program. It is a 3 phase program to fully integrate the German soldier with the future electronic battlefield and involves many revolutionary technologies. The first phase is under way with the first IDZ soldiers operating in the Balkans since July 2002. Phase 2 will be operational by 2005-6, followed by phase 3 to be operation by 2008. By Phase 3 the German soldier will bear almost no resemblence to a conventional soldier. Utilizing EADS technology the Phase 3 German soldier will be an aerospace/electronic soldier fully linked to every German weapons platform operating on air, land, and sea. This concept is way beyond the US Land Warrior Program which is still not fielded, even in Iraq. I guess you don't bother reading the military journals back home or Germany doesn't want that attention in its press. I guess you are unfamiliar with the "German Army 2020" Program your govt. "forgot" to announce- but thanks to a leak to the Pentegon, we've got it. It states that the Germany Army will be completely restructured for ultra-rapid, global warfare and that the Heer will be dividing into supersoldier "Jaeger" groups that will fight in real time with the aid of ACRs, entire families of wheeled AFVs, UCAVs, and ultra-sophisticated electronic gear. This concept is well known here. It's no secret that the German military wants to transform into a "special force" with fewer soldiers and more advanced equipment. No "leak" of any sort was needed for the Pentagon to know this too. Your Govt. likes to claim publically that the Heer is in sad shape and will take lots of time and money to bring it up to a proper, modern army capable of deploying anywhere in the world with the best equipment. Yet Germany has been steadily updating the Heer ever since reunification and the "German Army 2020" documents suggests that Germany is moving forward with an ambitious plan to change modern warfare taking the old "blitzkrieg" model and speeding it up considerably. US officials that have seen the documents are amazed by it and what it proposes. Even if not built and a German rocket is launched instead, German nationalism will guarantee a different name. Raumfahrer? Never. Raumjaeger or Jaegernaut, probably. "German nationalism"?? Where (or when!) the **** are you living?!? It's not 1945 anymore! For the record, I'm a German with a more than average interest in space flight, and I have _never_ seen terms like "Raumjäger" or "Jägernaut" (ridiculous!! - whoever thought of this can't possibly be a native speaker of German!) in a German publication (since the late '70s at least). Thanks again Andreas for omitting the origins of both those terms in my previous post. And yes, I clearly stated that the publication that came up with the term "Jaegernaut" was foreign. You did, and what _I_ said was that whoever published it didn't bother to ask someone who speaks German as their first language. And BTW, your digression was noted ;-) No digression as you alone do not speak for the entire German nation, nor those responsible for the German contributions to ESA. I do not like Jaegernaut either, but Raumjaeger preceded it when Von Braun was developing his space rocketry and dreams (before they became militarized into the A-4). And for the record, HAD the piloted V-2 (EMW A6) been actually built and flown by a Luftwaffe pilot in 1945 he would have POSITIVELY been called a Raumjaeger. Certainly, the Germans will call their own manned space personnel what they want. Germany _has_ (civilian) space personnel, and they're called "Astronauten". And there is no German manned military space program in sight - I really wish to know where you got to think otherwise! Adopting foreign names is perfectly acceptable during this time as Germans have only been passengers on foreign space missions. What I am talking about is the future- Germany fielding its own spacecraft. But on that day is won't be a variation of astronaut or cosmonaut (as in previous passenger missions). Whatever you say ... I guess being a native German is simply not enough for me to have any competence :-/. Andreas Its not about being a native German. It will be your govt. or military that decides the name when the time comes. BTW, I am German by BLOOD- you DO understand that, don't you. And IF you DO, then you know what will inevitably happen if Germany becomes the leader of United Europe. People weren't scared of Germany in 1935... but by 1939... uh well... you know what happened. Rob |
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On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:29:41 GMT, "Ed Majden"
wrote: "Alan Minyard" A radio telescope on the moon? You can't be serious. Do you have any idea how many flights would be required? Al for an optical telescope, earth orbit is far, far more practical. Moon missions are a waste of time and money. I didn't say it would be easy. Earth based radio telescopes are getting more restricted all the time because of the encroachment of man made noise across the electromagnetic spectrum. The only place to block this "noise" is by placing a radio telescope on the far side of the Moon. As for Moon missions being a waste of time, there is still much to be learned about the geology and origins of the Moon. Hell, we live on Earth and still understand very little about it. Ed We would be better off spending the resources on deep ocean research, something far more likely to "pay off" than mucking about on the moon. Al MInyard |
#46
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Its not about being a native German. It will be your govt. or military that decides the name when the time comes. BTW, I am German by BLOOD- you DO understand that, don't you. And IF you DO, then you know what will inevitably happen if Germany becomes the leader of United Europe. People weren't scared of Germany in 1935... but by 1939... uh well... you know what happened. Rob The fact that the Nazi's lost really, really bothers you, doesn't it? Al Minyard |
#47
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robert arndt wrote:
[snip ..] Its not about being a native German. It will be your govt. or military that decides the name when the time comes. BTW, I am German by BLOOD- you DO understand that, don't you. And IF you DO, then you know what will inevitably happen if Germany becomes the leader of United Europe. People weren't scared of Germany in 1935... but by 1939... uh well... you know what happened. Ok, I see, you're just what most people here call neo-nazi or, if in a less politically correct mood, scum. According to some Usenet law, I lost the discussion by calling you a Nazi. I don't care. Andreas |
#48
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Alan Minyard wrote in message . ..
Its not about being a native German. It will be your govt. or military that decides the name when the time comes. BTW, I am German by BLOOD- you DO understand that, don't you. And IF you DO, then you know what will inevitably happen if Germany becomes the leader of United Europe. People weren't scared of Germany in 1935... but by 1939... uh well... you know what happened. Rob The fact that the Nazi's lost really, really bothers you, doesn't it? Al Minyard No, the fact that history could repeat itself really bothers most of humanity. When Germany reunited in 1990 alot of Germans and most of Europe nervously watched the night celebrations and compared them to the Nuremberg rallies of the '30s. It was quite chilling for those that remembered history. For some the question of "Black Phoenix Rising" is still troubling given Germany's future position in a United Europe and the fears that the German character has not changed in 6 decades. Nazism still survives in Germany and to an extent in the Bundeswehr. Many German journalists, especially for Der Spiegel, have exposed continued interest in the Third Reich, Germany's xenophobia, neo-nazi racism and the role Munich plays at its center, German anti-semitism, etc, etc, etc... Frank Capra warned everyone in his WW2 series "Why We Fight" that if the German character does not change then a new generation of Germans will find a new leader to follow and the world would suffer again (from "Here is Germany", 1945). It would do everyone well to heed his warning. But people like you still think the US will remain the sole superpower forever. What utter stupidity. Unity is what is making China stronger. And European unity will make them stronger. Our nation OTOH is increasingly divided. Think about that. And don't start with how powerful we are since we are losing ground in Afghanistan and Iraq, haven't caught Osama nor Saddam, and haven't become any more secure with Homeland Security. We are just as vunerable to attack today as the day after 9/11. Rob |
#49
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#50
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"Chad Irby" wrote in message
. com... In article , (robert arndt) wrote: (snip) While the EU is turning into a bureaucratic superentity, the overhead that's coming with it is making the member countries less and less powerful as time goes on - and most of them are cutting their military budgets first (Germany and England for recent examples). England doesn't have a military budget. (snip) |
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