Legal or not?

"JPH" wrote in message
news:gE2Og.11816$Tl4.8274@dukeread06...

Sure, they MAY be used but still need to meet some criteria in order to be
ESTABLISHED as radar fixes.


They do not need to be ESATALISHED as radar fixes in order for ATC to
identify them.



The TERPs specialist can't identify it as a
radar fix on a procedure without the consent of ATC and verification by
flight check.
If the fix is marked "radar", that means flight check aircraft have
verified the radar fix meets accuracy requirements and it's depicted
properly on the scope. (Radar facilities do not have to depict or display
all fixes on their scope.) It also means that the specialist has annotated
the fix specifically as a radar fix on the 8260-2 forms that were
submitted IAW FAR 97 requirements.
So, as Sam says, you can't count on ATC identifying a fix on the IAP
unless it's marked "radar". Reason? It may or may not be depicted on the
scope (clutter) and they may or may not have agreed to be responsible for
calling the fix passage.


What Sam says if frequently wrong, as it is in this case. For example, take
a look at the VOR or GPS-A approach at Blackhawk Airfield:

http://map.aeroplanner.com/mapping/c...tab=approaches

REINE is identified as a RADAR fix but this approach isn't depicted on ZAU
ARTCC video maps at all. If the fix appears on the video map and it fits
the criteria specified in FAAO 7110.65 the controller can call the fix,
being identified as a RADAR fix on the IAP has nothing to do with it.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"JPH" wrote in message
news:gE2Og.11816$Tl4.8274@dukeread06...

Sure, they MAY be used but still need to meet some criteria in order to be
ESTABLISHED as radar fixes.



They do not need to be ESATALISHED as radar fixes in order for ATC to
identify them.



The TERPs specialist can't identify it as a
radar fix on a procedure without the consent of ATC and verification by
flight check.
If the fix is marked "radar", that means flight check aircraft have
verified the radar fix meets accuracy requirements and it's depicted
properly on the scope. (Radar facilities do not have to depict or display
all fixes on their scope.) It also means that the specialist has annotated
the fix specifically as a radar fix on the 8260-2 forms that were
submitted IAW FAR 97 requirements.
So, as Sam says, you can't count on ATC identifying a fix on the IAP
unless it's marked "radar". Reason? It may or may not be depicted on the
scope (clutter) and they may or may not have agreed to be responsible for
calling the fix passage.



What Sam says if frequently wrong, as it is in this case. For example, take
a look at the VOR or GPS-A approach at Blackhawk Airfield:

http://map.aeroplanner.com/mapping/c...tab=approaches

REINE is identified as a RADAR fix but this approach isn't depicted on ZAU
ARTCC video maps at all. If the fix appears on the video map and it fits
the criteria specified in FAAO 7110.65 the controller can call the fix,
being identified as a RADAR fix on the IAP has nothing to do with it.


That doesn't mean it will approach on the approach chart. Sam isn't
wrong, you are.

Did I ever say ATC can't call any fix they feel they can? The issue was
identify a fix as a radar fix on an approach chart.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

That doesn't mean it will approach on the approach chart.


I don't know what that's supposed to mean.



Sam isn't wrong, you are.


Am I? What did I say that Sam believes is wrong?



Did I ever say ATC can't call any fix they feel they can?


You said, "You cannot count on ATC identifying a fix on an IAP unless it is
marked 'radar'." How does ATC identify a fix that is not depicted on the
controller's video map?



The issue was identify a fix as a radar fix on an approach chart.


No, the issue was the legality of flying the ILS RWY 28 at AGC with
McKeesport NDB out of service.