Safety pilot - logging cross-country

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

==================
Legal Interpretation # 92-52

October 30, 1992

Mr. David M. Reid

Dear Mr. Reid:

Thank you for your letter of June 12, 1992, concerning the logging of
pilot-in-command (PIC) time under the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR).

In your letter you ask four questions. First, you ask whether there
are "any circumstances when, during a normal flight, two Private Pilots
may simultaneously act as (and therefore log the time as)
Pilot-In-Command?" The answer is two private pilots may not
simultaneously act as PIC but they may, under certain circumstances,
simultaneously log PIC time.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time.
PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 deals
with logging PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or
commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which
he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he
is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he
acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required
under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted. It is important to note that FAR 61.51
only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements
toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight
experience.

Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC
simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time
simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC
responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight
time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot who acts as the sole
manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is
rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please find two prior FAA
interpretations concerning logging of PIC time. We hope that these
will be of further assistance to you.

In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots log
their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for simulated
instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety
pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log PIC time
for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator of the
controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that aircraft. The
appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second in
command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot.

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under
simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this
interpretation will be of further assistance to you.

In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how shall
a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time: Pilot-In-Command
time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual Instrument time, when that
pilot is ... A) ... under the hood? B) ...in actual instrument
conditions? C) ... under the hood in actual instrument conditions?"
The answer is the VFR private pilot may log all of the flight time you
described as PIC flight time under FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) if he was the
sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated.
Under FAR 61.51(c)(4) the pilot may log as instrument flight time only
that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to
instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Please note that the FARs do not distinguish between "actual" and
"simulated" instrument flight time. Enclosed is a prior FAA
interpretation concerning the logging of instrument flight time. We
hope this interpretation will further assist you.

Finally you ask "[d]oes FAR 61.57 affect how the VFR Private Pilot
shall log Pilot-In-Command time during instrument training, either
before or after meeting the 6/6/6 requirement, and if so, how?" FAR
61.57 does not affect how a pilot logs PIC time during instrument
training; FAR 61.51(c)(2) and (4) govern logging of instrument flight
time. FAR 61.57(e) provides currency requirements for acting as PIC
under instrument flight rules (IFR) or in weather conditions less than
the minimums for visual flight rules (VFR). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation on instrument flight time and FAR 61.57(e).
We hope this interpretation will further assist you.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,

/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

On 12/14/2005 08:48, wrote:

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

How does answer the question set forth by the original poster?
His question was about logging x-country time, which the referenced
legal interpretation doesn't touch.


==================
Legal Interpretation # 92-52

October 30, 1992

Mr. David M. Reid

Dear Mr. Reid:

Thank you for your letter of June 12, 1992, concerning the logging of
pilot-in-command (PIC) time under the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR).

In your letter you ask four questions. First, you ask whether there
are "any circumstances when, during a normal flight, two Private Pilots
may simultaneously act as (and therefore log the time as)
Pilot-In-Command?" The answer is two private pilots may not
simultaneously act as PIC but they may, under certain circumstances,
simultaneously log PIC time.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time.
PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 deals
with logging PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or
commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which
he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he
is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he
acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required
under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted. It is important to note that FAR 61.51
only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements
toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight
experience.

Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC
simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time
simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC
responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight
time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot who acts as the sole
manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is
rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please find two prior FAA
interpretations concerning logging of PIC time. We hope that these
will be of further assistance to you.

In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots log
their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for simulated
instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety
pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log PIC time
for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator of the
controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that aircraft. The
appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second in
command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot.

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under
simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this
interpretation will be of further assistance to you.

In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how shall
a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time: Pilot-In-Command
time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual Instrument time, when that
pilot is ... A) ... under the hood? B) ...in actual instrument
conditions? C) ... under the hood in actual instrument conditions?"
The answer is the VFR private pilot may log all of the flight time you
described as PIC flight time under FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) if he was the
sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated.
Under FAR 61.51(c)(4) the pilot may log as instrument flight time only
that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to
instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Please note that the FARs do not distinguish between "actual" and
"simulated" instrument flight time. Enclosed is a prior FAA
interpretation concerning the logging of instrument flight time. We
hope this interpretation will further assist you.

Finally you ask "[d]oes FAR 61.57 affect how the VFR Private Pilot
shall log Pilot-In-Command time during instrument training, either
before or after meeting the 6/6/6 requirement, and if so, how?" FAR
61.57 does not affect how a pilot logs PIC time during instrument
training; FAR 61.51(c)(2) and (4) govern logging of instrument flight
time. FAR 61.57(e) provides currency requirements for acting as PIC
under instrument flight rules (IFR) or in weather conditions less than
the minimums for visual flight rules (VFR). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation on instrument flight time and FAR 61.57(e).
We hope this interpretation will further assist you.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,

/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Hmmmm...

From Legal Interpretation # 92-52:

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under
simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this
interpretation will be of further assistance to you.

This seems to say that the entire flight, including takeoff, landing,
and the part where the other pilot was sole manipulator while VFR and
not under the hood, could be loggable by the safety pilot as PIC time.
This implies that a pilot may log PIC time ("in accordance with FAR
1.1") when he acts as PIC, irrespective of the number of pilots
required, and irrespective of who is sole manipulator. This seems to
contradict FAR 61.51(e)(1), which in (iii) provides for time when acting
as PIC in a multi-pilot-required situation, but does not address
multi-pilot-used-but-not-required situations. By its omission there one
may infer it is intended to be omitted.

I wonder if the Chief Councel intended this contradiction. I've found
that Legal Interpretations are not all that well worded.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:01:37 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 12/14/2005 08:48, wrote:

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

How does answer the question set forth by the original poster?
His question was about logging x-country time, which the referenced
legal interpretation doesn't touch.

It does say:

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i).

So, if the flight is XC, wouldn't this allow both (assuming the prior
PF/PNF/ultimate safety condition is met) to log both PIC and XC (but
no landings for PNF) time?

On 12/14/2005 09:40, Peter Clark wrote:

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:01:37 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 12/14/2005 08:48, wrote:

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

How does answer the question set forth by the original poster?
His question was about logging x-country time, which the referenced
legal interpretation doesn't touch.

It does say:

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i).

So, if the flight is XC, wouldn't this allow both (assuming the prior
PF/PNF/ultimate safety condition is met) to log both PIC and XC (but
no landings for PNF) time?

So what about the time when the left-seat pilot is not under the hood.
It sounds to me like they are making an exception for this case. Can
the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood? ... seems like a stretch to me.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

To each his own, Hilton. Unless I am sitting in the left seat and doing all
the work, I do not log things just because I can find regulations that
support doing so. No logging of approaches performed by a student, no
logging of PIC if I'm really the safety pilot, etc.

Bob

"Hilton" wrote in message
nk.net...
Bob Gardner wrote:
Maybe it's me, but I wouldn't consider for a moment logging a trip that I
had not personally planned and flown on my own.

A few years ago, I figured that since I wasn't PIC for the takeoff and
landing, that I couldn't log XC PIC - assuming I was safety pilot and
acting as PIC while the other gyu was under the hood.

Then I read Part 61.1, and the time on a XC that you log PIC, you can also
log XC, assuming all the other requirements are met.

Hilton

Can the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood?

I'm guessing, no, based on:
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument
time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft
solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument
flight conditions.

In simulated conditions, once the hood is removed, it would seem to me
that only one or the other could be PIC at that point???

So... I'm beginning to sway to the side of, logging XC as safety pilot
seems to be a stretch!

Another good argument for getting that instructor rating:
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all
flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

Mark Hansen wrote:

So what about the time when the left-seat pilot is not under the hood.
It sounds to me like they are making an exception for this case. Can
the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood? ... seems like a stretch to me.

To begin with, there is no safety pilot when the pilot flying is not under the
hood. So your "Can the safety pilot..." question doesn't make sense.

Aside from that, there is no requirement that the acting PIC is actually
manipulating the controls. Anyone aboard with the proper credentials can act as PIC.

On 12/14/2005 10:25, three-eight-hotel wrote:

Can the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood?

I'm guessing, no, based on:
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument
time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft
solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument
flight conditions.

In simulated conditions, once the hood is removed, it would seem to me
that only one or the other could be PIC at that point???

Well, that was my argument. One way to interpret the regs is that
both would be able to log PIC, although only one could be PIC.


So... I'm beginning to sway to the side of, logging XC as safety pilot
seems to be a stretch!

Also, each pilot needs to decide what is the point of logging such
time. If it is to show that you have the experience necessary to
afford you an advanced rating, you would really want to have that
experience. Personally, I don't think flying as a safety pilot for
another pilot on a x-country flight provides me the same x-country
'experience' as making the flight myself.


Another good argument for getting that instructor rating:
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all
flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

...and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time....

The pilot under the hood can log PIC for "all of the flight time during
which he is sole manipulator of the controls". If he is not under the
hood, he can't log THAT flight time. So he can't log the landing
(unless they can figure out a safe way of landing with the pilot under
the hood being "sole manipulator of the controls").

Seems clear enough to me.

As for whether the pilot under the hood can log the flight time he logs
as PIC as crosscountry....who knows? THAT is not in the FARs either
way. So you are free to make your own interpretation, I guess, so long
as everyone who signs you off is also in agreement with you, with the
caveat that someone might disagree with your interpretation. And if
that someone is senior to you, it could cause problems.

Some situations aren't in the FARs. I own an Amphib and there is quite
a bit of ambiguity about exactly how to log it, mostly revolving around
do you log it as a Seaplane if you don't land on a lake on that flight?
And can a non-seaplane rated pilot someone else flying the plane
besides me) be legal as PIC in the plane (if otherwise legal in it as a
landplane)? I have my way of doing it, it is my interpretation, but
like I say, some things aren't in the FARs.