Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..

I agree completely with akiley here.

To me, the 396's value is in adding more detail to what's already
available. Especially in terms of calibrating your eyeballs. If you
try to stay in the clear as much as possible and use the 396 to add
dimensions to what you see (and hear from ATC/pireps), you'll find it a
tremendous aid.

Having said that, any hard rules about flying thru purple and never
flying thru fuscia are generalizations at best. It's all about getting
the big picture, forecasts, actual, trends, and filling in the details.
Rain in non-convective conditions is completely different from
convective rain. Sometimes the value is all about being able to see
what's going on beyond that wall of clouds in front of you.

One of my early experiences flying north out of FL into Savannah - I
swear I was doing better with the 396 than the guys with onboard radar.
What I was seeing was probably less important to them than to me but
being able to see around corners enabled me to make the best fuel stop
while they seemed more dependent on ATC advice. Pretty amazing when
compared to pre-396 days.

akiley wrote:
Dan wrote:

For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather,
avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am
considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info
safely, but yet with the maximum utility.
a cloud that hadn't produced rain yet.

My solution is to try to stay either above to see the buildups, or
below and avoid the rain shafts. But the 396 can also be used to find
areas of less cloud cover and lower tops. The echo tops have that
feature where you can scroll through the altitudes and watch where
cloud appears. Then you can just look for the holes in the regular
satellite display.

So to me the trick it so combine all these: The 396 weather features,
what image ATC is painting, the overall weather picture to determine if
the ingredients for convection are there, what you see out the window,
PIREPS and ride reports, tactical weather flying to try to keep
yourself visual as much as possible. Green or yellow may be fine on
days when you know there is little chance of buildups. But if green is
next to a steep gradient of yellow, into orange to red. Steer clear.

I think the 396 is an amazing tool. You can sit on the ground in your
airplane and it's almost like having the internet in your lap. I sat
on the ramp at Midway a few weeks ago and waited for a hole in the
weather using the 396. I practice with Elite simulator which will now
drive your 396 plugged into a serial port. I can put the satellite
antenna out the window to get real weather, download through Elite and
the internet real weather, and I can do near real time weather practice
sim flying. And you get a great automotive navigator for a few extra
bucks. ... akiley

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:51:13 -0700, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by the
local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating for
Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and WARP
experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar and Weather
Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was never mentioned.

There was a news segment the other night on the next generation RADAR.
The researcher made the statement, that when they get it working they
will have "real time" images that are only ten to 15 seconds old
instead of the current 5 minutes.

And here I thought my weather service that said current really meant
current.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have a ZSE
controller I can check with.

Bob Gardner

"Newps" wrote in message
...
I'm not aware of ATC displaying NEXRAD although I suppose it's possible.
We display real time weather in the TRACON up to six seconds old.

Ronnie wrote:

Bob,

Was this a center or approach control facility and more
specifically, was the weather info display primary or
NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount
of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm
wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite
broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I
undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes
to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is,
the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well.

Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and
the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing
the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have
experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective
storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC
agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous
this type of weather can be.

I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of
weather.

Ronnie


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
. ..

The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the
396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you
need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going,
and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize
that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical
currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay
well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you
have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible.

Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They
showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated
the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the
controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of
the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination.
Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice
and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading,
the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The
message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the
cockpit and real life are two different things."

Bob Gardner

"Dan" wrote in message
legroups.com...

For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather,
avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am
considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info
safely, but yet with the maximum utility.

Dan

Bob Gardner wrote:
I'm guessing that a very small percentage of those who frequent this
newsgroup fly airplanes with onboard weather radar. OTOH, there are hundreds
if not thousands who have multifunction displays. My comments are directed
to that group.

Whatever. That doesn't change the fact that only airbrorne weather
radar displays real-time echos.

Bob Gardner wrote:
That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by the
local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating for
Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and WARP
experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar and Weather
Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was never mentioned.

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have a ZSE
controller I can check with.

That's the center. Their display is a mosaic of many radar sites. Ask
your center buddy how often center weather radar gets updated. However
when you are talking to an approach or tower controller with radar, that
updates every six seconds. There's no processing. What I see is what's
there.

Newps wrote:


Bob Gardner wrote:

That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by
the local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating
for Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and
WARP experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar
and Weather Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was
never mentioned.

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have
a ZSE controller I can check with.


That's the center. Their display is a mosaic of many radar sites. Ask
your center buddy how often center weather radar gets updated. However
when you are talking to an approach or tower controller with radar, that
updates every six seconds. There's no processing. What I see is what's
there.

What about a TRACON with STARS?

http://www.faa.gov/aua/weather/warp/

Read the first paragraph.

Bob

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..
I'm not aware of ATC displaying NEXRAD although I suppose it's possible.
We display real time weather in the TRACON up to six seconds old.

Ronnie wrote:

Bob,

Was this a center or approach control facility and more
specifically, was the weather info display primary or
NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount
of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm
wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite
broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I
undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes
to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is,
the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well.

Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and
the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing
the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have
experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective
storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC
agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous
this type of weather can be.

I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of
weather.

Ronnie


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
. ..

The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the
396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you
need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going,
and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize
that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical
currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay
well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you
have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible.

Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They
showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated
the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the
controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of
the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination.
Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice
and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading,
the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The
message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the
cockpit and real life are two different things."

Bob Gardner

"Dan" wrote in message
egroups.com...

For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather,
avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am
considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info
safely, but yet with the maximum utility.

Dan

OK. Apples and oranges. Way back at the beginning of this thread we were
talking about using an [airborne] 396 weather display. The information sent
to cockpits, installed or handheld, is NEXRAD-based, and I jumped in to
emphasize the point that real-time weather does not exist in the cockpit
unless you have airborne weather radar, which few have. Now, all of a
sudden, you chime in with what you see at a terminal facility? Without
disclosing the kind of facility you work at?

For those late to the discussion, look at this:

http://www.faa.gov/aua/weather/warp/

Bob Gardner

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Bob Gardner wrote:
That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by
the local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating for
Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and WARP
experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar and
Weather Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was never
mentioned.

Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have a
ZSE controller I can check with.

That's the center. Their display is a mosaic of many radar sites. Ask
your center buddy how often center weather radar gets updated. However
when you are talking to an approach or tower controller with radar, that
updates every six seconds. There's no processing. What I see is what's
there.

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 18:24:20 -0700, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

http://www.faa.gov/aua/weather/warp/

Read the first paragraph.

Which if I understand right is about 5 minutes old by the time the
images are processed. This is the same "real time" stuff I get in my
subscription service. "Real Time" in this context meaning as soon as
they get it processed.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Bob

"Newps" wrote in message
...
I'm not aware of ATC displaying NEXRAD although I suppose it's possible.
We display real time weather in the TRACON up to six seconds old.

Ronnie wrote:

Bob,

Was this a center or approach control facility and more
specifically, was the weather info display primary or
NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount
of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm
wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite
broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I
undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes
to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is,
the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well.

Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and
the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing
the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have
experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective
storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC
agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous
this type of weather can be.

I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of
weather.

Ronnie


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
. ..

The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the
396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you
need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going,
and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize
that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical
currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay
well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you
have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible.

Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They
showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated
the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the
controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of
the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination.
Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice
and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading,
the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The
message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the
cockpit and real life are two different things."

Bob Gardner

"Dan" wrote in message
legroups.com...

For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather,
avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am
considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info
safely, but yet with the maximum utility.

Dan

On 9 Jun 2006 17:04:28 -0700, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

I wish I had an easy answer for you. However, wx is a non-trivial
subject. There are two ways you can make use of your 396 in wx. First,
you can fly with a CFI who is experienced in flying cross country.
Second you can start out very, very conservative and learn as you go
how the wx on your 396 affects your flight.

My take on this and I've been storm chasing longer than we've had
Loran, let alone down linked RADAR. I've seen 5 tornados and one
really big water spout. I even managed to get caught outdoors along
with two of my neighbors, in a little F-1 and that can certainly raise
your sense of awareness.

The 396 has some advantages and disadvantages when compared to
airborne RADAR. Starting with the good, it does not have the blind
spots you will find from time to time in airborne RADAR caused by
absorption in heavy precipitation which can hide some nasty stuff.
OTOH if you keep in mind that the display is probably 5 minutes old or
a tad more AND you have been following it you can pick your course.

However I agree with Robert. Take a conservative approach and learn to
interpret what you are seeing on the display, how to track, and how to
predict. Learn to follow both cell and frontal movement. They are
rarely the same. Usually the cells are traveling at right angles to
the front, but NOT ALWAYS. Learn to identify upper level winds by the
rain blown off creating plumes that may or may not go in the direction
of the front or cells. You normally want to stay away from those
plumes as they may contain hail and that can be as much as 5 to 10
miles ahead of the storm at altitude. Speaking of hail and altitude,
you really don't want to run into hail in front of a cell at altitude.
It is a *lot* larger than what we see at ground level.

BTW when on the ground and in front of an approaching storm. If the
wind is blowing toward the storm that is "inflow" and a sign of a
storm with very strong convective activity.

Once you learn to determine cell movement, remember that cells can
"pop up" behind the ones you are watching. Has the storm shown a
tendency for cells to pop up along, ahead of, or behind the front. Are
the cells associated with frontal movement or a general wide spread
instability?

Knowing the storm and front movement, speed and direction along with
the knowledge the information you are seeing is at least 5 minutes old
would certainly tell me I would want to give a lot of space when
flying in front of the front or cells. OTOH Cells growing up along a
line may start to pop up on the "up wind" side of current activity.
Some times the growth of this line can be a real surprise and it can
contain some really nasty stuff.

As was said earlier. Get all the information available about the
activity and area through which you will be flying. Then use that
information along with what the RADAR is showing. A storm scope can
be really helpful in extending your "real time" knowledge of what is
going on and should be a good indicator of where those RADAR images
are headed as well as what to expect from them.

Just remember that conservative approach.

-Robert, CFI


Dan wrote:
For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather,
avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am

Yellow and even red may not indicate anything other than heavy rain if
it's not associated with convective activity. You learn what you are
seeing, where it is compared to the display, and where it is going.
Then stay out of its way. All this takes practice and liberal use of
FSS can help.

Good Luck,


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info
safely, but yet with the maximum utility.

Dan

Bob Gardner wrote:
OK. Apples and oranges. Way back at the beginning of this thread we were
talking about using an [airborne] 396 weather display. The information sent
to cockpits, installed or handheld, is NEXRAD-based, and I jumped in to
emphasize the point that real-time weather does not exist in the cockpit
unless you have airborne weather radar, which few have. Now, all of a
sudden, you chime in with what you see at a terminal facility? Without
disclosing the kind of facility you work at?
\

My recollection is that he has told the group more than once that he
works at Billings TRACON.