wonders of VFR on top

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...

I told him I only needed the clearance for 10 miles until I got on
top. He said he still needed to wait for Oakland center unless I just
wanted a clearance to VFR-on-top.


He was mistaken.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...

What did you do? Get a clearance to a fix within his sector? Details
would be appreciated.


He actually issued the clearance all the way to my dest. However, it
was a climb maintain...if not on top by... to VFR on top clearance.
Apparently if he didn't do the VFR on top in the clearance he would
have to wait for the clearance.


And if you were not on top by the specified altitude, you'd have a normal
IFR clearance to your destination at that altitude, something he said he
couldn't do.

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
. com...

He actually issued the clearance all the way to my dest. However, it
was a climb maintain...if not on top by... to VFR on top clearance.
Apparently if he didn't do the VFR on top in the clearance he would
have to wait for the clearance.


I thought that VFR ON TOP was a segment of an IFR flight plan where you
maintain VFR cruise altitudes and visual separation until you resume IFR
altitudes and IFR separation as needed by weather or for arrival.


It is.



Here on the California coast were stratus can force an IFR departure to
about 2000ft I ask for an "IFR departure for climb to VFR conditions" with
a
clearance from my field to a VOR about 20NM away. Well before I am more
than
5 miles from my departure I am above the fog and can cancel IFR and ask
for
VFR flight following.


In my experience, that's what most people are looking for when they request
VFR-on-top. They're issued the whole "climb to and report reaching
VFR-on-top, no tops reports, if not on top at 4000 maintain 4000 and advise"
in lieu of a hard IFR altitude. They depart, climb through the clouds,
cancel IFR, and proceed on their merry way without having operated
VFR-on-top at all.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

I've never used an IFR to VFR on top clearance. What are the subleties of
this?


VFR-on-top is an IFR procedure. When you're VFR-on-top you must adhere to
VFR cruising altitudes and you are responsible for separation, ATC will
continue to provide traffic advisories. You are still bound to your cleared
route.



What is the clearance limit?


Whatever fix you are cleared to. If "cleared to" was followed by
"VFR-on-top", you got a bad clearance.



What are the lost comm procedures if the clearance limit isn't an
airport?


While VFR-on-top? Continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as
practicable.



What if you don't break out when you expect to find VFR?


That's where the alternative instruction comes into play. Example; "climb
to and report reaching VFR-on-top, no tops reports, if not on top at 4000
maintain 4000 and advise". You'd report that you're still in the clouds and
continue to the clearance limit at 4000, or request an alternate clearance.

In my experience, that's what most people are looking for when they
request
VFR-on-top. They're issued the whole "climb to and report reaching
VFR-on-top, no tops reports, if not on top at 4000 maintain 4000 and
advise"
in lieu of a hard IFR altitude. They depart, climb through the clouds,
cancel IFR, and proceed on their merry way without having operated
VFR-on-top at all.

Actually our local controllers (if sierra approach can be called local) are
pretty much on top of this since what they issue is: "Cleared to xxxx via
xxx departure. Climb to and maintain xxxx. If not in VFR conditions by xxxxx
maintain xxxxx and report." No VFR ON TOP in their clearances.

Howard


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
m...

Actually our local controllers (if sierra approach can be called local)
are
pretty much on top of this since what they issue is: "Cleared to xxxx via
xxx departure. Climb to and maintain xxxx. If not in VFR conditions by
xxxxx
maintain xxxxx and report." No VFR ON TOP in their clearances.


But there should be a VFR-on-top in a VFR-on-top clearance.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
m...

Actually our local controllers (if sierra approach can be called local)
are
pretty much on top of this since what they issue is: "Cleared to xxxx
via
xxx departure. Climb to and maintain xxxx. If not in VFR conditions by
xxxxx
maintain xxxxx and report." No VFR ON TOP in their clearances.


But there should be a VFR-on-top in a VFR-on-top clearance.

I guess my point is this is not a VFR ON TOP clearance. This is an IFR
clearance to a local waypoint with an altitude limit. If I was ever still in
IFR conditions then I am sure I would be given a vector or hold and asked
what are my intentions. Here the conditions are very predictable most of the
year. Thick stratus from near ground to 2000 ft. within couple of miles of
the coast so I always know I will break out and not have clouds inland for a
couple hundred nautical miles. If the weather along my proposed route were
predicted to be IFR then I would file and request an IFR clearance for the
entire route of flight.
Howard



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message .com...
Here on the California coast were stratus can force an IFR departure to
about 2000ft I ask for an "IFR departure for climb to VFR conditions" with a
clearance from my field to a VOR about 20NM away. Well before I am more than
5 miles from my departure I am above the fog and can cancel IFR and ask for
VFR flight following.
Howard
C182P


That's the exact same thing. The phrase you used is the same as an IFR
clearance up "to VFR on top". I live in the Sacramento valley and we
get the same fog you get, but just in the winter rather than the
summer.

-Robert

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:48:09 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

What are the lost comm procedures if the clearance limit isn't an
airport?


While VFR-on-top? Continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as
practicable.


What if you're unable like a deck below giving 1000' or less ceilings.
Do you then use the IFR lost comm procedures?

Since you're still on an IFR flight plan and need to adhere to IFR
rules, you shouldn't get hung out to dry if something goes wrong.

I remember learning about this, but forget.

z

Howard Nelson wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
. com...

Actually our local controllers (if sierra approach can be called local)
are
pretty much on top of this since what they issue is: "Cleared to xxxx

via

xxx departure. Climb to and maintain xxxx. If not in VFR conditions by
xxxxx
maintain xxxxx and report." No VFR ON TOP in their clearances.


But there should be a VFR-on-top in a VFR-on-top clearance.


I guess my point is this is not a VFR ON TOP clearance. This is an IFR
clearance to a local waypoint with an altitude limit. If I was ever still in

This seems like trouble if you lose comm prior to reaching the local
waypoint and getting further instructions. If you are in VMC, no
problem, but if you're still IMC, what are you going to do? If you
filed an IFR flight plan, you can follow that, but what if you didn't
file a flight plan for this "VFR" flight?


Matt