Protestor Damages Enola Gay

Both Eisenhower and MacArthur thought otherwise, but what do they
know? Hell, they were just the generals running the war and commanding
the troops who fought it. Probably a couple of bleeding-heart, pinko,
commie, rat-******* liberals anyway. I'm sure YOU know FAR more about
it than they ever did....

"Japan was already defeated and that dropping the
bomb was completely unnecessary"
Dwight Eisenhower, "Mandate for Change", pg 380

"the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't
necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
Dwight Eisenhower, Newsweek, 11/11/63

"No military justification for the dropping of the bomb".
Douglas MacArthur
Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65



On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:41:58 +0900, Ernest Schaal
wrote:

I agree that there should have been more information in the exhibit. Besides
mentioning the thousands who died because of the bombs, there should have
been mention of the greater number of Japanese lives that were spared from
their inhumane government, who had wanted all Japanese to die rather than
admit that their leaders lost the war, a war they never could have won.

in article , KenG at
wrote on 12/18/03 10:22 AM:

And Hunderds of thousands did not die.....

KenG

Gunnar wrote:
Why not simply include the wanted information in the exhibit ? It seams like
a small request to me.
It is after all true that 100+ thousand humans died because of this
plane/bomb.

Is history now politically uncorrect in the US ?

?
G



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Dear Mr. NoSpam,

If you had been keeping up with the news (specifically the Japanese
newspapers), you would have known that even after the Nagasaki bomb was
dropped, the military wanted to continue the struggle to the death of the
last Japanese, rather than admit defeat. There were a few stories to that
effect in the Japan Times within the past year or so. Those stories might
still be accessible somewhere.

Needless to say, both Eisenhower and MacArthur had been dead before those
revelations had been made, although I remember reading about the role of the
emperor in finally admitting the defeat as early as the 1970s.

It is true that many in Japan were ready to surrender, but that didn't
really matter, since the Japan of that time was under the tight control of a
government run by the military. While there were civilians in the
government, the cabinet could be brought down (and often did) at any time by
the Army or Navy quitting from the cabinet. Throughout that period, thought
police persecuted anyone who dared voice a dissenting opinion.

The net result of all this is that Japan has become very pacifist since the
war, and there is major political turmoil with even the sending of
noncombatants to Iraq, or anywhere for that matter. On television, the
Japanese military of the period are often the heavies, far more than the
American military.

Do you ever bother to study Japanese history or Japanese society? Have you
ever visited here or lived here?


in article , at
wrote on 12/18/03 1:03 PM:


Both Eisenhower and MacArthur thought otherwise, but what do they
know? Hell, they were just the generals running the war and commanding
the troops who fought it. Probably a couple of bleeding-heart, pinko,
commie, rat-******* liberals anyway. I'm sure YOU know FAR more about
it than they ever did....

"Japan was already defeated and that dropping the
bomb was completely unnecessary"
Dwight Eisenhower, "Mandate for Change", pg 380

"the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't
necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
Dwight Eisenhower, Newsweek, 11/11/63

"No military justification for the dropping of the bomb".
Douglas MacArthur
Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65

I

The Japanese military infrastructure and capacity to wage effective war may
have already been destroyed, and sensible people would have quit under those
circumstances, but according to at least one Japan Times story the military
was quite willing to sacrifice the lives of all Japanese civilians rather
than stand the shame of living with those civilians after losing the war.

Most sources I know of talk about the resistance of the military to
surrender, and the uncommon action of the Emperor of resisting the military
on this matter.

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/18/03 1:34 PM:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:19:23 +0900, Ernest Schaal
wrote:


It is true that many in Japan were ready to surrender, but that didn't
really matter,

Very true ...
what mattered was that Toyko and the Japanese military infrastructure
and capacity to wage war had been already destroyed.

Jake,

I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
and more dominant.

Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
both bombs had not been dropped. The civilians were being trained to use
bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.

You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
political power in Japan. The form of government in Japan was not a
democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a centuries
old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.

I recommend that you read the Meiji Constitution of 1889, which governed the
war years.

Do you know anything about Japanese history?

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/18/03 1:59 PM:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:39:19 +0900, Ernest Schaal
wrote:

The Japanese military infrastructure and capacity to wage effective war may
have already been destroyed, and sensible people would have quit under those
circumstances, but according to at least one Japan Times story the military
was quite willing to sacrifice the lives of all Japanese civilians rather
than stand the shame of living with those civilians after losing the war.

sure...
I dont doubt it for a moment..throughout human history meglomaniacs
have always been prepared to do so..

but they were the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
power.

Most sources I know of talk about the resistance of the military to
surrender, and the uncommon action of the Emperor of resisting the military
on this matter.

Indeed ..
but the Japanese military had already been defeated..

The nuclear bombs were dropped for other reasons than military..

Nagasaki was chosen as a target almost randomly by the pilot
because of weather conditions..on the strength of it having a
Mitsubushi factory there..

"jake" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:41 +0900, Ernest Schaal
wrote:

Jake,

I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
and more dominant.

Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
both bombs had not been dropped.

this is not a "fact " but your assertion..

An assertion based in facts. The Japanese civilians were already starting to
starve (by the end of July, the average Japanese was subsisting on some 1680
calories per day, and the call had gone out to harvest a couple of million
bushels of acorns to try and stem the tide of starvation)--prolonging the
war would undoubtedly have resulted in a lot of civilian deaths due to
starvation. Add in the deaths that would have resulted from the continuing,
and increasing, conventional aerial bombardment (the B-29 force was still
growing, and after Okinawa fell the potential of aircraft like the B-24 to
be added to the assaulting force was nearing fruition), recalling that more
prople died in Tokyo and its environs due to the earlier incendiary attacks
than died at Hiroshima. Those bypassed Japanese forces in the south and
western Pacific that were already suffering deaths due to starvation would
have lost that many more of their garrisons. Finally, toss in the deaths
that the Japanese alone (disregarding the heavy casulaties that would
undoubtedly have been borne by the Olympic/Coronet assault forces) would
have suffered during an invasion. Add them up and any realistic observer is
going to conclude that they would undoubtedly have exceeded the sum total of
both atomic bomb attacks.


The civilians were being trained to use
bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.

civilians with bamboo spears would not have been much of a contest for
the most powerful and technologically superior military machine ever
assembled in the history of the world..now would it?

Which is why they would have died in dizzying numbers, albeit while taking
some number of US troops with them.



You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
political power in Japan.

they lost it the instant the army was defeated..

The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the plug, and
even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup to
prevent the surrender.

To quote one of your neighbours..
"political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"


The form of government in Japan was not a
democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a
centuries
old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.

And once defeated the form of government became a matter for the
victors..

Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?

snip further mindless drivel

Brooks

in article , jake at
wrote on 12/18/03 2:48 PM:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:41 +0900, Ernest Schaal
wrote:

Jake,

I don't think you don't understand anything about Japanese culture,
especially that of the dark years when the military influence became more
and more dominant.

Whether or not the "Japanese military had already been defeated" doesn't
change the fact that the Japanese deaths would have been much greater if
both bombs had not been dropped.

this is not a "fact " but your assertion..

It not merely my assertion, but that of others as well.


The civilians were being trained to use
bamboo spears to attack any allied troops who landed in Japan.

civilians with bamboo spears would not have been much of a contest for
the most powerful and technologically superior military machine ever
assembled in the history of the world..now would it?

True, they probably would not be effective against our forces, but a poorly
armed force that can't (not permitted to) surrender usually has high
causalities.

You speak of "the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
power." Unfortunately, those "defeated meglomaniacs" had not lost their
political power in Japan.

they lost it the instant the army was defeated..
To quote one of your neighbours..
"political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"

The above statement shows that you know absolutely nothing about Japanese
history or Japanese culture. Although there had been peasant revolts for
over a thousand years, those revolts were always unsuccessful and ended
poorly for those who revolted. Considering that history, a successful revolt
against the military-controlled government simply was not an option.

The form of government in Japan was not a
democracy or even a republic, instead it was a continuation of a centuries
old tradition of using the emperor as a figurehead to govern.

And once defeated the form of government became a matter for the
victors..

That didn't happen until after the surrender.


I recommend that you read the Meiji Constitution of 1889, which governed the
war years.

after the Tokyo raids it stopped at article one..

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/1889con.html

Article 1. The Empire of Japan shall be reigned over and governed by a
line of Emperors unbroken for ages eternal.

Article 2. The Imperial Throne shall be succeeded to by Imperial male
descendants, according to the provisions of the Imperial House Law.

Article 3. The Emperor is sacred and inviolable.

While the Emperor was "sacred and inviolable," that Emperor was usually
controlled by his cabinet. Even the Meiji emperor really didn't have the
power that the constitution said he had.

If you knew anything about Japanese history, which you clearly don't, you
would have realized that even prior to the Tokugawa shogunate, and even
prior to the other shogunates, the real power did not rest in the Emperor.
During the Heian period ("Tale of Genji"), the emperor's advisers or
ex-emperors controlled the figurehead emperor. Occasionally an emperor would
endeavor to win back real power, but any success was fleeting.

The Tokyo raids did as much damage as the atomic bombs, but those raids did
not effectively reduce the political power of military nor did they change
the nature of that government, except to make it more determined. Even the
two atomic bombs were almost not enough.

Do you know anything about Japanese history?

only where it intersects with European history..

That explains a lot about your misconceptions on this matter.

From: jake

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:39:19 +0900, Ernest Schaal
wrote:

The Japanese military infrastructure and capacity to wage effective war may
have already been destroyed, and sensible people would have quit under those
circumstances, but according to at least one Japan Times story the military
was quite willing to sacrifice the lives of all Japanese civilians rather
than stand the shame of living with those civilians after losing the war.

sure...
I dont doubt it for a moment..throughout human history meglomaniacs
have always been prepared to do so..

but they were the ravings of defeated meglomaniacs who had LOST their
power.

Most sources I know of talk about the resistance of the military to
surrender, and the uncommon action of the Emperor of resisting the military
on this matter.

Indeed ..
but the Japanese military had already been defeated..

The nuclear bombs were dropped for other reasons than military..

Nagasaki was chosen as a target almost randomly by the pilot
because of weather conditions..on the strength of it having a
Mitsubushi factory there..



You don't read much hsitory do you? Nagasaki was on a list of targets given to
the aircrew. Nothing "almost random" there. There were several cities, 5 or 6
IIRC, that were selected for primary or alternate nuke targets.

As for the Japanese military being defeated by August 1945 tell that to the
bunch of fully functional combat units in China, Viet Nam, Korea etc. It wasn't
until the Soviets entered the Pacific war that the Japanese forces were facing
defeat in China. If Japan hadn't surrendered who knows how long the war in
China would have lasted. The Japanese had a lot of things to cover up and had
no intention of leaving easily.

As for the Home Islands every civilian was to be armed with everything from
sharpened bamboo sticks to real weapons. Let's assume 50% of the civilians
actually acted in the invasions the number of American and Japanese casualties
would have been unbelievable. How many children would have been slaughtered?
How many suicides? Thank God we will never know.

This made the atomic bombings a military necessity. Add the casualties in
China, Korea etc to those involved in the invasions and you get numbers too big
for most people to comprehend.

I will admit there were also political reasons for dropping the bombs, but they
HAD to be used primarilay for military reasons.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Kevin Brooks wrote:


The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the plug, and
even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup to
prevent the surrender.

Wait, wait. There was something more to that. When the cabinet members
voted for the acceptance of the Postdam Declaration or not, the numbers
tied. Therefore, the final decision was made by the emperor.

At the time, the Japanese populace were under abnormal pressure. They
were brainwashed that defeat means death. Therefore, after the
surrender, a large number of both soldiers and civilians killed
themselves. In the street or anywhere, someone pulled the pin of the
hand grenade and shouted, "Ten'nou heika banzai!", a group of
passers-bys jumped on to it to be blown up together. A pair of school
girls pulled their knives and stabbed each other. If one didn't have any
means to kill oneself, one begged the closest military person to shoot
oneself. I just can't believe how crazy human can get.


Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?

Sex industry was indeed a big hit.

"Cindy" wrote in message
news:lulEb.144653$_M.714783@attbi_s54...
Kevin Brooks wrote:


The Army remained undefeated until the Emperor finally pulled the plug,
and
even then there was a hardcore element that tried a last minute coup to
prevent the surrender.

Wait, wait. There was something more to that. When the cabinet members
voted for the acceptance of the Postdam Declaration or not, the numbers
tied. Therefore, the final decision was made by the emperor.

At the time, the Japanese populace were under abnormal pressure. They
were brainwashed that defeat means death. Therefore, after the
surrender, a large number of both soldiers and civilians killed
themselves. In the street or anywhere, someone pulled the pin of the
hand grenade and shouted, "Ten'nou heika banzai!", a group of
passers-bys jumped on to it to be blown up together. A pair of school
girls pulled their knives and stabbed each other. If one didn't have any
means to kill oneself, one begged the closest military person to shoot
oneself. I just can't believe how crazy human can get.


Who left a legacy of true democracy; what a shame, huh?

Sex industry was indeed a big hit.

If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
Japanese social history.

Brooks

Kevin Brooks wrote:


If you think the US was responsible for introducing an enlightened attitude
towards sex to the Japanese, you are sadly mistaken and need to review your
Japanese social history.

I read John Dower's "Embracing Defeat". Hey, you got to be proud of
your country for this service. Sex gave the Japanese fantasy,
daydreaming, and probably a lot of babies after the defeat. Pan pan
girls were able to make money off the American GIs. Strip shows were
first introduced in Asakusa and were the major success. Western women
were considered to be a sex symbol. Sex was far better than committing
suicide, after all. You didn't know that, did you?