"Stand Alone" Boxes (Garmin 430) - Sole means of navigation - legal?

Probably this has been answered in this forum previously, but I can't find
it. Sorry.

I recently got into a friendly discussion with a knowledgable CFII who said
a Garmin 430 could not be legally used as "sole means of navigation".
Looking back, I think what he means is that "GPS" (even IFR certified units)
can not be used as sole means. Since the Garmin 430 contains not only TSO'd
GPS but also VOR, LOC, GS, etc., my position is that this unit (without any
other navigation equipment on board) is legal as a "stand alone" for use en
route, terminal, and approach . (I know charts are still necessary.)
Please advise.

The following came off the Garmin web site:
******************
GPS: TSO C129a, Class A1 (en route, terminal, and approach)

VOR: TSO C40c

LOC: TSO C36e

GS: TSO C34e

VHF COM: TSO C37d, Class 4 and 6 (transmit) and TSO C38d, Class C and E
(receiver)

The GNS 430 is the most versatile panel-mounted product GARMIN has produced
to date. It combines GPS navigation, VHF communication, and moving map
graphics on a big color display. This "all in one box" 12-channel unit
offers IFR GPS, ILS, VOR, LOC and glideslope capability in a single,
space-saving package

**************************

I don't believe that is right. I think when they refer to "sole means
of navigation" they mean that you need to have other means of
navigation (separate NAV receiver). Think about it from a safety
point of view, forgat the legal requirements for a moment. If you
were in the soup and your Garmin died, what would you do? I would
never trust one instrument. The all-in-one feature of advanced GPS
units is nice, but you could lose the whole thing.

-Dave
PP-ASEL-IA

Dave Pascoe KM3T wrote

Generally speaking, your entire post is incorrect.

I don't believe that is right. I think when they refer to "sole
means of navigation" they mean that you need to have other means
of navigation (separate NAV receiver).

A "means" of navigation refers to a "system" of navigation, not
the devices used to accomplish that means. ADF,VOR,GPS are means,
a King VOR receiver is a device to accomplish a means of navigation.


If you were in the soup and your Garmin died, what
would you do? I would never trust one instrument.

Many parts of the world still rely on the NDB/ADF system for
navigation. What would one do if that one ADF receiver fails?
Airliners navigated across the ocean for years using only one
LORAN A receiver.


Bob Moore
ATP CFII

"Dave Pascoe KM3T" wrote in message
...

I don't believe that is right. I think when they refer to "sole means
of navigation" they mean that you need to have other means of
navigation (separate NAV receiver).


Hmmm.... That would mean that IFR flight with a single NAV receiver is
illegal.



Think about it from a safety
point of view, forgat the legal requirements for a moment. If you
were in the soup and your Garmin died, what would you do? I would
never trust one instrument. The all-in-one feature of advanced GPS
units is nice, but you could lose the whole thing.


Do you trust one electrical system to power all of your NAV gear?

Probably this has been answered in this forum previously, but I can't find
it. Sorry.

I recently got into a friendly discussion with a knowledgable CFII who said a
Garmin 430 could not be legally used as "sole means of navigation".
Looking back, I think what he means is that "GPS" (even IFR certified units)
can not be used as sole means. Since the Garmin 430 contains not only TSO'd
GPS but also VOR, LOC, GS, etc., my position is that this unit (without any
other navigation equipment on board) is legal as a "stand alone" for use en
route, terminal, and approach . (I know charts are still necessary.)
Please advise.


I would suggest finding another CFII who knows the TSO's. Absurd for someone
who is supposed to know material to make a statement like that. This is the
kind of CFII who insists that DME is required when flying above FL240, and the
a VOR receiver check is required 30 days prior to doing an ILS or localizer
approach while on an IFR clearance. Ridiculous.


paul k. sanchez, cfii-mei
on eagles’ wings
2011 south perimeter road, suite g
fort lauderdale, florida 33309-7135
305-389-1742 wireless
954-776-0527 fax
954-965-8329 home/fax

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:54:37 GMT, "Richard" wrote:


The GNS 430 is the most versatile panel-mounted product GARMIN has produced
to date. It combines GPS navigation, VHF communication, and moving map
graphics on a big color display. This "all in one box" 12-channel unit
offers IFR GPS, ILS, VOR, LOC and glideslope capability in a single,
space-saving package


The GNS430 box with an external CDI is legal as the sole means of
navigation. Even if the GPS fails you still have a VOR which is legal
as the sole means of navigation. As for backup a single GNS430 is no
worse than a single VOR which is also legal for IFR navigation.

"Richard" wrote in message t...

Looking back, I think what he means is that "GPS" (even IFR certified units)
can not be used as sole means.

That is more-or-less true. If you're going to use the GPS to fly an approach
you're required to be able to get into an alternate without it.

Since the Garmin 430 contains not only TSO'd
GPS but also VOR, LOC, GS, etc., my position is that this unit (without any
other navigation equipment on board) is legal as a "stand alone" for use en
route, terminal, and approach

Yep. As a matter of fact, many new aircraft are delivered with only 430/530's
as nav equipement.

. (I know charts are still necessary.)

Charts are never strictly required for us small fry. As a practical matter, you
need them, but only perverse misinterpretations of the regulations require their
carriage.

In article , "Ron Natalie"
writes:

Since the Garmin 430 contains not only TSO'd
GPS but also VOR, LOC, GS, etc., my position is that this unit (without any
other navigation equipment on board) is legal as a "stand alone" for use en
route, terminal, and approach

Yep. As a matter of fact, many new aircraft are delivered with only
430/530's
as nav equipement.

A single 430 should not be used with the Idea that a VOR will always be
available if the GPS goes south. I had the display in my 430 fail which made
the COMPLETE unit inop.( unless you knew where the com was and could count the
clicks :-) )

Chuck

"PaulaJay1" wrote in message ...

A single 430 should not be used with the Idea that a VOR will always be
available if the GPS goes south. I had the display in my 430 fail which made
the COMPLETE unit inop.( unless you knew where the com was and could count the
clicks :-) )

That redundancy concern is different from the legal issues. It's perfectly legal
to fly (subject to the ground facilities needed) with a single NAVCOM. It can
just as easily go TU leaving you with no nav or com.

The regulations just say that if you are going to use GPS that your alternate requirements
have to be met without using GPS. They're figuring satellite geometry failure (GPS system)
not the reliablity of the box installed.

Ron Natalie wrote:
The regulations just say that if you are going to use GPS that your alternate requirements
have to be met without using GPS. They're figuring satellite geometry failure (GPS system)
not the reliablity of the box installed.

Which is more likely though? I guess, by induction or extrapolation or
whatever, that the FAA figures ATC can handle one guy having a bad day
at a time (if his GPS/NAV box fails) and not half the airplanes all at
once (widespread GPS jamming or satellite system failure).