Slavery In Aviation

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:54:50 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:49:55 -0600, "Jeff Franks"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

...screw the union.

Ah! The true voice of management rears its ugly head. Booo.

I find a policy of an employer "screwing" his employees out of their
just wages so repugnant, that it smacks of despotism. It also forces
other FBOs to perpetrate the same indecent demands on the flight
instructors in their employ to remain competitive. It's a bad
practice, and it takes a dignified professional to stand up and
express his disdain for it. It's a form of blackmail, not unlike the
legal definition of sexual abuse, pure and simple.

Perhaps the time has arrived for flight instructors unite and form a
labor union.

Then we can all go to Mexico, China, India, etc., etc., etc for our
flight
training.

Why would we do that?

How many millions of jobs have been moved out of the country because of
unions?

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:54:50 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:49:55 -0600, "Jeff Franks"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

...screw the union.

Ah! The true voice of management rears its ugly head. Booo.

I find a policy of an employer "screwing" his employees out of their
just wages so repugnant, that it smacks of despotism. It also forces
other FBOs to perpetrate the same indecent demands on the flight
instructors in their employ to remain competitive. It's a bad
practice, and it takes a dignified professional to stand up and
express his disdain for it. It's a form of blackmail, not unlike the
legal definition of sexual abuse, pure and simple.

Perhaps the time has arrived for flight instructors unite and form a
labor union.

Then we can all go to Mexico, China, India, etc., etc., etc for our
flight
training.

Why would we do that?

How many millions of jobs have been moved out of the country because of
unions?

And how many have moved because foreign workers are more literate and better
versed in English (reading & writing) than their American counterparts?

There's a lot of factors in the present "brain drain":

* Labor costs (particularly for the unskilled and those with marginal
skills) and labor laws (some okay, most political game playing)
* The alphabet soup of Federal and state agencies
* Tax Rates, and more importantly, TAX POLICY.
* Environmental regs
* Marginally literate workers
* Poor work habits/ethic
And on and on...

Americans, for the past few generations, have voted for a pristine,
risk-free, comfortable world, with no worries, no hassles, everything
guaranteed...cradle-to-grave.

What they are getting is exactly what they DEMANDED, it's just not what they
expected.

"Tom S." wrote in message
...
...screw the union.

Ah! The true voice of management rears its ugly head. Booo.

I find a policy of an employer "screwing" his employees out of
their
just wages so repugnant, that it smacks of despotism. It also
forces
other FBOs to perpetrate the same indecent demands on the flight
instructors in their employ to remain competitive. It's a bad
practice, and it takes a dignified professional to stand up and
express his disdain for it. It's a form of blackmail, not unlike
the
legal definition of sexual abuse, pure and simple.

Perhaps the time has arrived for flight instructors unite and form
a
labor union.

Then we can all go to Mexico, China, India, etc., etc., etc for our
flight
training.

Why would we do that?

How many millions of jobs have been moved out of the country because of
unions?

And how many have moved because foreign workers are more literate and
better
versed in English (reading & writing) than their American counterparts?

There's a lot of factors in the present "brain drain":

* Labor costs (particularly for the unskilled and those with marginal
skills) and labor laws (some okay, most political game playing)
* The alphabet soup of Federal and state agencies
* Tax Rates, and more importantly, TAX POLICY.
* Environmental regs
* Marginally literate workers
* Poor work habits/ethic
And on and on...

Americans, for the past few generations, have voted for a pristine,
risk-free, comfortable world, with no worries, no hassles, everything
guaranteed...cradle-to-grave.

What they are getting is exactly what they DEMANDED, it's just not what
they
expected.

Oh, I almost forgot!!

Our idiotic tort system (so how is John Edwards doing in his presidential
bid?).

one more post in a thread that should have died...
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

However, the topic needs to be discussed. There appear to be a number of
deluded individuals that think being forced to work without pay is a
good
thing. Personally, I think it is theft and, at bottom, an offense as
serious
as murder.

You have GOT to be kidding.

Please get a grip, CJ, and develop a few more nuances in your sense
of perspective.

One wonders: why all these people willing to put up with such
conditions?
They think that if they just build enough hours or 'pay their dues' that
they will eventually get a decent paying job.

Precisely.

And when they do start demanding to be paid, does that mean that they
have
lost their work ethic?

It means they have decided that their long-term goals are no longer
being served by their short-term deprivations.

I'm an engineer, a widowed 40-something single dad. A year ago I gave up a
good geek job in a struggling business unit (telecom not much of a growth
industry since 2000) of a great company when the choice seemed between being
a good engineer or a good dad. Not yet looking for a job, was planning that
for the springtime, but a chance connection with an old friend who is now
the CEO with a startup has led to the possibility of doing some fun work.
The senior people are all working only for equity right now. If I join them,
I'll be in the same boat until the springtime and then the salaries will
still not be what I had, but still lots of equity.

That equity might never be worth something. It might be worth a lot. It
probably (if it is the average startup) will never equal the cushy job with
great retirement that captains for the major carriers have managed to pry
out of the system (at least from carriers that aren't threatened with
bankruptcy).


If everyone in the profession pretty much feels the same way, things
will change. If there's a line of people with the same qualifications
out the door and around the block who are willing to deal with the
status quo working conditions, the polite employer's response will
be "good luck in your future endeavors, don't let the door hit you
on the way out"

It's called supply-and-demand in the free market, and while it's not
pretty sometimes I haven't heard of a better system yet.

Sydney

In general, flying is a lot more fun than engineering, it requires much less
education and more people have the requisite talent. No surprise the
beginning wages are paltry. And before anyone wants to start in on the cost
to self train to fly, my alma mater is now charging over $20K a year and
degrees still take four years.

-Greg

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:56:06 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:54:50 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:49:55 -0600, "Jeff Franks"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

...screw the union.

Ah! The true voice of management rears its ugly head. Booo.

I find a policy of an employer "screwing" his employees out of their
just wages so repugnant, that it smacks of despotism. It also forces
other FBOs to perpetrate the same indecent demands on the flight
instructors in their employ to remain competitive. It's a bad
practice, and it takes a dignified professional to stand up and
express his disdain for it. It's a form of blackmail, not unlike the
legal definition of sexual abuse, pure and simple.

Perhaps the time has arrived for flight instructors unite and form a
labor union.

Then we can all go to Mexico, China, India, etc., etc., etc for our
flight
training.

Why would we do that?

How many millions of jobs have been moved out of the country because of
unions?

How many jobs have been moved out of the US by greedy big business?

How would you like to work under the conditions that those who fill
those jobs do?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:56:06 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:54:50 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:49:55 -0600, "Jeff Franks"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

...screw the union.

Ah! The true voice of management rears its ugly head. Booo.

I find a policy of an employer "screwing" his employees out of their
just wages so repugnant, that it smacks of despotism. It also
forces
other FBOs to perpetrate the same indecent demands on the flight
instructors in their employ to remain competitive. It's a bad
practice, and it takes a dignified professional to stand up and
express his disdain for it. It's a form of blackmail, not unlike
the
legal definition of sexual abuse, pure and simple.

Perhaps the time has arrived for flight instructors unite and form a
labor union.

Then we can all go to Mexico, China, India, etc., etc., etc for our
flight
training.

Why would we do that?

How many millions of jobs have been moved out of the country because of
unions?

How many jobs have been moved out of the US by greedy big business?

Not nearly as many as have been forced out of the country by greedy unions.

How would you like to work under the conditions that those who fill
those jobs do?

In many cases those conditions are as good if not better then the conditions
here. Don't believe the exceptions blasted all over the news are the norm.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 05:13:20 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

How many jobs have been moved out of the US by greedy big business?

Not nearly as many as have been forced out of the country by greedy unions.

How would you like to work under the conditions that those who fill
those jobs do?

In many cases those conditions are as good if not better then the conditions
here. Don't believe the exceptions blasted all over the news are the norm.


We disagree.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:06:51 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote in Message-Id: :

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 05:13:20 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
m:

How many jobs have been moved out of the US by greedy big business?

Not nearly as many as have been forced out of the country by greedy unions.

How would you like to work under the conditions that those who fill
those jobs do?

In many cases those conditions are as good if not better then the conditions
here. Don't believe the exceptions blasted all over the news are the norm.


We disagree.

Perhaps you'd be willing to reside in Mexico instead of the US:


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Business AVflash Volume 1, Issue 2 — November 26, 2003

-------------------------------------------------------------------

RAYTHEON MIGRATING WORK TO MEXICO
The growing trend to outsource American jobs is also gaining
popularity in the aerospace market. On Nov. 7, 350 Raytheon
Aircraft Co workers in Wichita learned their jobs were heading
south of the border to Mexico. Officials at Raytheon's wire
harness division in east Wichita announced it would transfer the
wiring work to Labinal Inc.' s division in Pryor, Okla. However,
most of the work will be done at Aerotec de Mexico, Labinal's
subsidiary in Chihuahua, Mexico.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#186142

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:06:51 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote in Message-Id: :

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 05:13:20 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in Message-Id:
m:

How many jobs have been moved out of the US by greedy big business?

Not nearly as many as have been forced out of the country by greedy
unions.

How would you like to work under the conditions that those who fill
those jobs do?

In many cases those conditions are as good if not better then the
conditions
here. Don't believe the exceptions blasted all over the news are the
norm.


We disagree.

Perhaps you'd be willing to reside in Mexico instead of the US:


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Business AVflash Volume 1, Issue 2 - November 26, 2003

-------------------------------------------------------------------

RAYTHEON MIGRATING WORK TO MEXICO
The growing trend to outsource American jobs is also gaining
popularity in the aerospace market. On Nov. 7, 350 Raytheon
Aircraft Co workers in Wichita learned their jobs were heading
south of the border to Mexico. Officials at Raytheon's wire
harness division in east Wichita announced it would transfer the
wiring work to Labinal Inc.' s division in Pryor, Okla. However,
most of the work will be done at Aerotec de Mexico, Labinal's
subsidiary in Chihuahua, Mexico.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#186142

Actually it is a pretty good place to retire to and quite a few folks do
just that. The above avweb article has nothing to do with working
conditions so what's your point? I'll betcha a dime to a dollar those 350
jobs are union jobs.