FAA

At 18:06 10 August 2003, Nolaminar wrote:
Has anyone ever experienced an FAA Ramp Check when
involved with soaring?
Any such experience at a meet or competiotion.

Yup. 15-Meter Nationals at Tonopah. One pilot randomly
selected by the inspector was asked to pull out of
the take-off line until the crew could return with
the guy's pilot certificate, which had been left at
the hotel 'for safekeeping.'

Judy

I have had one-on-one discussions with ATC supervisors about the
possibilities of cloud flights and came away with the impression that they
(ATC) would do all they could to make such flights possible - if you played
by their rules.

Not very likely to be able to follow ATC's rules. You have to be on an
instrument flight plan and ATC would expect you to hold heading and altitude.
You also would have to be transponder equiped. ATC will work with you and it
is possible to educate them of your needs but they are not used to gliders and
if other traffic is in the area ATC is not likely to let you not hold heading
and alt.

"Shaber CJ" wrote in message
...
I have had one-on-one discussions with ATC supervisors about the
possibilities of cloud flights and came away with the impression that
they
(ATC) would do all they could to make such flights possible - if you
played
by their rules.

Not very likely to be able to follow ATC's rules. You have to be on an
instrument flight plan and ATC would expect you to hold heading and
altitude.
You also would have to be transponder equiped. ATC will work with you and
it
is possible to educate them of your needs but they are not used to gliders
and
if other traffic is in the area ATC is not likely to let you not hold
heading
and alt.

Actually, creative use of "cruise" clearances which allow altitude changes
within an assigned altitude band and course deviations for "weather" can
allow a glider pilot almost total freedom within the ATC system. A variant
of the cruise clearance is "climb while holding" which permits a climb in
cloud with guaranteed separation from all other traffic.

It all depends on your relationship with the ATC facility. IFR flights are
not as rigidly controlled as it would seem from the first reading of the FAA
"Instrument Flying Handbook". There are areas of the USA where IFR traffic
is very sparse and consequently, controllers get very bored. Some of them
look at handling gliders as a welcome diversion.

Even so, it takes a very skilled and disciplined pilot to make all this
work - and, yes, you need a Mode C transponder in addition to all the other
IFR goodies.

Bill Daniels

Subject: FAA
From:
Date: 8/14/2003 7:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: m

Craig,

Its been a long time since I've done any power flying but I can tell you
that the folks at LA center have been great about providing VFR flight
following when flying between the border and the Mojave wth a mode c
transponder. They seem to get quite a kick out of "working" a glider.
Granted most of my experience with this over the past 13 years with a
transponder has been in pretty good VFR conditions so they might not be at
max workload. I have also had great cooperation on clearances above 18K in
wave conditions. Now this is in VFR conditions and I am instrument rated...
Hi Bob:

I am sure there are exception to my experience, however VFR flight following is
not like working IFR traffic. Hey just a thought, since you have not been
flying power how do you keep your IFR currency, and is it really a valid ticket
at this point?

How do you like the ASW-22? I hope to see that bird in the air someday. I
heard Al did a nice job of refinishing her.

Cheers

Craig

At 21:18 18 August 2003, Adp wrote:

I base the minimum equipment rules on the fact that
there are many gliders flying today that do not meet
minimum VFR requirements (of US FAR 91.205) They are
not
applicable to GLIDERS!

Geez, Louise! By this rationale, VFR cloud clearances
don't exist because everybody talks about being 'right
there at cloudbase.'

Look at any glider POH or placards, this is the MEL
for a glider. It is irrelevant who the certificating
authority is. Your Airworthiness certificate will have
the operating requirements.

Egad, we're about to digress into 91.213 on the topic
of approved MELs, but I'll do as I'm told...

Am looking at the POH for my glider - a 1981 ASW-20.
Minimum Equipment list: ASI, altimeter and a 4-part
Safety Harness. Additional equipment for cloud flying:
a turn & bank, compass and VHF Transceiver. (A total
aside to this discussion: the POH specifies make &
model for each item. Some are no longer in production.)

Incorporated into this glider's Experimental Airworthiness
certificate is an Operating Limitations page - a boilerplate
form issued by a west coast FAA office; it limits US
ops to Day VFR only, with instrumentation as listed
in FAR 91.205.

You see, 91.205 - on the face of it - applies to powered
aircraft including motorgliders certificated in the
standard airworthiness category; depending on FAA-issued
operating limitations, however, these and/or other
instrumentation/equipment requirements may also apply
to an individual aircraft issued an Experimental airworthiness
certificate.

Let me say it one more time, a motor glider is a GLIDER
with a Motor and is NOT a powered aircraft. Write
it 1000 times, a motor glider is a GLIDER!

You can say it 'till you're blue in the face, if you
want. We already agree that in terms of aircraft category,
a motorglider is a GLIDER. (Why are we shouting?) What
you steadfastly refuse to believe is that in terms
of 91.205 applicability, (1) a motorglider is also
a 'powered aircraft' and (2) in certain instances,
91.205 can apply to an Experimental glider with or
without a motor.

Judy

Judy Ruprecht... wrote:

snip, snip, snip

because everybody talks about being 'right
there at cloudbase.'

Yeah, I've always wondered about that and I've decided I'm glad they
don't listen to us on 123.3. I like being up there where it's cool and
you can't see very far...

Egad, we're about to digress into 91.213 on the topic
of approved MELs,

One of my favorites!! Fraught with landmines and cowpies.

Incorporated into this glider's Experimental Airworthiness
certificate is an Operating Limitations page - a boilerplate
form issued by a west coast FAA office; it limits US
ops to Day VFR only, with instrumentation as listed
in FAR 91.205.

Ahh, yes - the old "incorporated by reference" guidance springs to
mind. Lucky you with the pre-1993 letter. I liked your previous post,
Judy: "Aren't FAR's fun?" I sure think so!!

Soon, I expect someone will post the FAR 1 definition of Glider... the
one with the word "principally" in it.

This is fun, but can we use apply the time spent cutting and pasting
rules to our Wings program? I better get my 1-26 over here, I
obviously need something to work on in the evenings.

Jim

At 23:42 20 August 2003, Michael wrote, quoting Paul
Lynch:

(without a CFI-imposed limitation over & above FAR
minimum requirements)... the transition pilot (could)
be flying on the CFIs certificate indefinitely.

I know what you mean, but I'm the only one who'll be
operating 'ON' my CFI certificate, thank you very much
- particularly when it's in my back pocket.

(to which 'Micael' responded) And on what basis is
the transition pilot required to comply with the limitation
on the solo endorsement?

Chapter and verse, please.

Opinion only, since I know of no FAR directly on point
here. Still...

... under 61.31(d)(2), such an endorsement can be construed
as the CFI defining the 'supervision' he or she will
provide. (No supervision, no solo privileges.)

... under 91.103, required preflight action, the PIC
is required to 'become familiar with all available
information concerning that flight.' Logically (and
legally, one hopes) written CFI-imposed limitations
regarding x-winds, practice area, x-c routes and/or
time limitations would be considered pertinent.

... (hang on - this is sort of an indirect proof) 61.195(d)(iii)
prohibits a CFI from endorsing a student pilot certificate
or logbook for solo flight unless the CFI has 'determined
that the student pilot is prepared to conduct the flight
safely under known circumstances, subject to any limitations
listed in the student's logbook that the instructor
considers necessary for the safety of the flight.'
Nothing in this section or elsewhere in the FARs prohibits
the CFI from applying the same professional standards
to a transition pilot who is not the holder of a student
pilot certificate.

Judy

At 18:48 21 August 2003, Michael wrote to Paul:

So I repeat my question - what makes you think the
transition pilot is required to comply with any
additional limitations, such as expiration date, crosswind
limitation, etc?

Yeah, so? What makes you think the holder of a student
pilot certificate is required to bide by any of the
CFI-imposed limitations outlined in and required by
61.195(d)(iii)?

It's anarchy out here... and oftentimes, common sense
can and should apply.

Judy

Judy Ruprecht wrote
So I repeat my question - what makes you think the
transition pilot is required to comply with any
additional limitations, such as expiration date, crosswind
limitation, etc?

Yeah, so? What makes you think the holder of a student
pilot certificate is required to bide by any of the
CFI-imposed limitations outlined in and required by
61.195(d)(iii)?

14CFR61 Subpart C -- Student Pilots
61.89 General limitations.
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(8) In a manner contrary to any limitations placed in the pilot's logbook by an
authorized instructor.

Michael

That cite works for a student pilot. A certificated airplane pilot getting
glider training is not a student pilot. See the FAQs for Part 61 on the FAA
website.

As another poster noted, a CFI gives authorizations and may limit them as he
or she sees fit. Operate outside that authorization and you violate Part 61
and possible Part 91.


"Michael" wrote in message
om...
Judy Ruprecht wrote
So I repeat my question - what makes you think the
transition pilot is required to comply with any
additional limitations, such as expiration date, crosswind
limitation, etc?

Yeah, so? What makes you think the holder of a student
pilot certificate is required to bide by any of the
CFI-imposed limitations outlined in and required by
61.195(d)(iii)?

14CFR61 Subpart C -- Student Pilots
61.89 General limitations.
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(8) In a manner contrary to any limitations placed in the pilot's logbook
by an
authorized instructor.

Michael