Busted TFR, what to expect?

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
bob wrote:

Obviously the current system isn't working well.

Hypothetically querying, how is someone who admits to not checking TFRs
capable of accurately commenting on the effectiveness of the system?


Divine revelation.

"bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Still haven't heard anything from the FSDO, but not much time has
passed. I'll post with whatever they eventually flog me with, but in
the meantime here's some comments on the comments:

Q. Why would NOTAMs on another frequency or AWOS be easier to check
than the current methods?
A. Current methods require one to check a web page or make a phone
call, an extra effort rather different from simply checking another
frequency. It's not so much the time involved, but the relatively
different task.

You should maybe check NOTAMs at least once. Then you'd see just how many
there are, and how impractical it would be to include them on an existing
AWOS transmission or similar. I suppose you could set up a new system like
HIWAS, etc. with a dedicated NOTAM frequency, but it'd still be relatively
impractical (you'd have to listen to several minutes of NOTAMs just to be
sure you heard them all) and you'd run into the problem of taking up new
radio frequencies for something that really doesn't have to be an in-flight
information thing.

As far as the current methods requiring extra effort, well dang...there's a
lot of extra effort involved in flying. Just how little effort do you want
to put in? Compared to most of the other stuff involved in flying creating
"extra effort", checking NOTAMs is pretty minimal.

Q. Are there pilots that really check before EVERY flight?
A. Apparently so. And maybe I will join the ranks. But my computer
isn't on all the time and being Windoze takes a while to boot.

The fact that my computer isn't on all the time is why it takes at least
five minutes. Big deal. Turn on your computer, and then go put your flight
bag next to the door, or brush your teeth, or whatever, while it's booting.

Dialing
1-800-WX-BRIEF isn't difficult, maybe they could have a recording just
for major NOTAMs in the area (they already connect you to your regional
FSS station based on your calling phone number).

Sure, that would not be a bad idea at all. I haven't phoned for a briefing
in a long time (no Class B ADIZ around Sea-Tac, yet) so I don't know what
they offer, but a menu option to drop you into a NOTAM menu structure would
be useful. No need to limit it to TFRs...just make TFRs a category, and
include other stuff (like obstacles to navigation, chart NOTAMs, FDC, etc.)
on other menus.

Q. Don't you check weather before every flight?
A. X-country, yes, local, no. It's a California thing I guess...ya
gotta live here a summer to understand.

You just don't get it. Even here in Seattle, we often have weather that
makes it obvious that I don't need to check the *weather*. That's not the
point. A preflight briefing is more than weather. It's not "a California
thing". It's a lazy pilot thing.

Q. How would an email notification work, they don't know what airport
you're at?
A. Similar to AOPA's system, the FAA would setup a web page where
pilots voluntarily participating would submit their email address and
location (either state, zip code, or airport ID) and they would receive
emails for TFR and NOTAMs.

I would agree that an email notification system would be handy. It should
be simple enough to set up, and would serve a useful purpose. However...

This would help for the local flights where
many pilots don't get a briefing.

An email system does not get you out of getting a briefing. It just
provides a relatively convenient way to help you know about important
information. Email is fundamentally unreliable, and there's no way to prove
that you read the email that was sent to you, nor to ensure that you have
actually received all applicable NOTAM information.

Even if you have an email notification system, you would still need to get a
proper briefing before your flight.

[...] We might as well
recognize that for local VFR flights there are just a lot of pilots
that don't get briefings, so why not reduce the number of TFR
violations with a simple email system?

We might? What is your basis for claiming that "there are just a lot of
pilots that don't get briefings"? Near as I can tell, pilots are MUCH more
likely to be in the category of "always get a briefing" than "never get a
briefing".

BTW, there's an interesting report about TFR violations at
http://www.volpe.dot.gov/opsad/docs/tfranalysis.pdf. Here's a
statistic that caught my eye: "...2900 violations in the two years
between June 2002 and June 2004 alone."

Compared to the number of flights made during those two years, 2900
violations is a very small number.

Obviously the current system isn't working well. Why not be practical
and implement additional notification methods to reduce the violation
rate?

I have to agree with Peter R.'s reply: I see no proof here that "the current
system isn't working well". You're not using the current system. How does
your experience relate at all to how well it works?

Pete

Bob,
Who are you dealing with at the FSDO? Is it Henson?

-Robert

We just had a briefing from one of the Lockheed Martin AFSS managers and
that is coming. You will be able to log onto a website and provide your
personal information if you wish. Call for a weather briefing and the
briefer will have your name, ratings, etc. It will be funny calling the
briefer and he says "Hello, Ross, what can I do for you today?"

Ross
SKWI

bob wrote:



Q. How would an email notification work, they don't know what airport
you're at?
A. Similar to AOPA's system, the FAA would setup a web page where
pilots voluntarily participating would submit their email address and
location (either state, zip code, or airport ID) and they would receive
emails for TFR and NOTAMs. This would help for the local flights where
many pilots don't get a briefing. The point being, no single method
will work, but an email notification system would be very cheap and
relatively effective for those participating. We might as well
recognize that for local VFR flights there are just a lot of pilots
that don't get briefings, so why not reduce the number of TFR
violations with a simple email system?

OK so a question for the drivers with XM or other satellite WX. Do these
technologies graphically display TFR's on the display?

- Barney
"bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Still haven't heard anything from the FSDO, but not much time has
passed. I'll post with whatever they eventually flog me with, but in
the meantime here's some comments on the comments:

Q. Why would NOTAMs on another frequency or AWOS be easier to check
than the current methods?
A. Current methods require one to check a web page or make a phone
call, an extra effort rather different from simply checking another
frequency. It's not so much the time involved, but the relatively
different task.

Q. Are there pilots that really check before EVERY flight?
A. Apparently so. And maybe I will join the ranks. But my computer
isn't on all the time and being Windoze takes a while to boot. Dialing
1-800-WX-BRIEF isn't difficult, maybe they could have a recording just
for major NOTAMs in the area (they already connect you to your regional
FSS station based on your calling phone number).

Q. Don't you check weather before every flight?
A. X-country, yes, local, no. It's a California thing I guess...ya
gotta live here a summer to understand.

Q. How would an email notification work, they don't know what airport
you're at?
A. Similar to AOPA's system, the FAA would setup a web page where
pilots voluntarily participating would submit their email address and
location (either state, zip code, or airport ID) and they would receive
emails for TFR and NOTAMs. This would help for the local flights where
many pilots don't get a briefing. The point being, no single method
will work, but an email notification system would be very cheap and
relatively effective for those participating. We might as well
recognize that for local VFR flights there are just a lot of pilots
that don't get briefings, so why not reduce the number of TFR
violations with a simple email system?

BTW, there's an interesting report about TFR violations at
http://www.volpe.dot.gov/opsad/docs/tfranalysis.pdf. Here's a
statistic that caught my eye: "...2900 violations in the two years
between June 2002 and June 2004 alone."

Obviously the current system isn't working well. Why not be practical
and implement additional notification methods to reduce the violation
rate?

Barney Rubble wrote:

OK so a question for the drivers with XM or other satellite WX. Do these
technologies graphically display TFR's on the display?

I have WSI downlinked weather and the first year with the system I
subscribed to the TFR package. Yes, the TFR was graphically displayed.

Given the fact that I fly more IFR than VFR, I decided the TFR add-on was
not worth the additional cost to me and didn't renew it the second year.
Someone flying a lot of VFR would certainly have a different opinion.

--
Peter

"Barney Rubble" wrote in news:4475e76b$0$9421
:

OK so a question for the drivers with XM or other satellite WX. Do these
technologies graphically display TFR's on the display?

- Barney


YES!!! (at least with the XM package).

The 396 shows the TFR's in red just like on this page:

And you can see the representation of your current position in relationship
to it.... (or restricted, or MOA, etc...). It also warns you when your
current corse is going to cause you to enter a TFR; Restricted, MOA, etc...

moving the "pointer" to the graphic of the area brings a "pop-up" of the
description of the TFR

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

bob wrote:
1-800-WX-BRIEF isn't difficult, maybe they could have a recording just
for major NOTAMs in the area (they already connect you to your regional
FSS station based on your calling phone number).

Q. Don't you check weather before every flight?
A. X-country, yes, local, no. It's a California thing I guess...ya
gotta live here a summer to understand.

Remeber YOU control the briefing... you can request whatever info you
want.... standard, update, abreviated, outlook or just plain ask about
pertinent NOTAMS or TFRs.

In article .com,
"bob" wrote:

Q. Are there pilots that really check before EVERY flight?

Are there pilots who really do a preflight and engine runup before EVERY
flight?

rg

Bob,

Obviously the current system isn't working well.


So you didn't even check? And you do tha regularly? Jeeze, wtf do you
expect? This makes what happened entirely your fault, I'm afraid. And,
with all due respect, I really do hope the FSDO manages to teach you a
thorough lesson - because you're one of the idio^H^H^H^H, uhm, persons
hurting all of us pilots by being careless and lazy.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)