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Audio recording of RAF Lancaster under nightfighter attack



 
 
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  #61  
Old October 6th 03, 07:32 AM
Blair Maynard
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"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
...
In article ,
nt (Gordon) writes:
The first thing that popped out at me was the "No Engine Noise" thing.
Again, not only are the engines loud, but they're passing vibrations
into the structure at 2000-3000 Hz (engine revs) and 1000-1500 Hz
(prop revs) each. There should be a bug change in the character of
the background noise when the Flight Engineer pushes the props
up. (Increase RPM) Even with isolated engine mounts, the whole
airplane, and everything/everyone in it will be bucketing away. I
doubt any kind of 1940s recording technology, whether it be disk
(etching grooves in flight - how quiet will that be?) or wire (rare,
and, in fact, it could be that only the Germans had wire or steel tape
(sort of like a bandsaw blade) recorders at that time (Don't tell the
Rootin' Teuton I said so). If the sound were that well isolated, why
do the machnie gunes come through so well?
One last thing - This is supposed to be a Lancaster or Halifax (I
makes no difference for this point) on a night raid. That means that
all the crew would be on Oxygen, and they'd be using the mask
microphones. I don't here anyone breathing. They're talking, I'd
bloody well expect them to be breathing.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster


It could be a genuine recording. Did you know they have actual recordings of
Snoopy shooting down the Red Baron during WW1? Yeah, I think it was recorded
by a company called the Royal Guardsmen or something....
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  #62  
Old October 6th 03, 07:40 AM
Keith Willshaw
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"William Donzelli" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message

...

The equipment used was apparently restricted to the range
60 Hz to 4500 Hz


The microphones and interphone equipment, on the other hand, had a
frequency response of roughly 300-3000 Hz. Depending on the type of
microphone used (T-17, T-44, British HI, or a zillion others - the
Station Boxes (probably Bendix MI-22s) could handle lots of different
types of microphones), the response characteristics might be a little
different, but not much. The interphone amplifier likely also has a
filter to supress anything out of the 300-3000 Hz range. There were
noise cancelling mikes back then, but they were not very good.

Did someone mention a disc recorder being used? Frankly, I can not
think of anything worse to take on a big bomber. The virbrations from
the engines would go right thru to the cutting head mechanically, even
with a good shockmount.


They did use a disc recorder for the simple reason that was
all they had available , the sound engineer reported having
to keep the blank discs inside his flight suit to keep them
warm enough to cut.

see
http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...r/wr_intro.htm
and
http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet..._recorders.htm
http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet.../wr_midget.htm

Keith


  #63  
Old October 6th 03, 11:59 AM
Dave Eadsforth
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In article , Peter Stickney
writes
In article ,
nt (Gordon) writes:
Engine noise on aircraft has always been a problem, specifically on combat
(non-passenger) types. On some aircraft, you can tell which position a person
is sitting at by how much engine noise bleeds over to the ICS. Even something
as small as a B-25 has noticeable engine noise and high freq tones bleeding
over when you key the ICS, so I really can't see how a crew aboard a Lanc

could
use their normal speaking voices and be heard. As for the technology of
noise-canceling microphones in 1943, I think its implausible that a Lanc would
be fitted with a system equipped with such microphones for every member of the
crew - I agree with the guys who feel this is a studio-done, or
studio-cleaned-up, product. I don't doubt that the dialogue came primarily
from a Lanc crew, but its too clean!


The first thing that popped out at me was the "No Engine Noise" thing.
Again, not only are the engines loud, but they're passing vibrations
into the structure at 2000-3000 Hz (engine revs) and 1000-1500 Hz
(prop revs) each. There should be a bug change in the character of
the background noise when the Flight Engineer pushes the props
up. (Increase RPM) Even with isolated engine mounts, the whole
airplane, and everything/everyone in it will be bucketing away. I
doubt any kind of 1940s recording technology, whether it be disk
(etching grooves in flight - how quiet will that be?) or wire (rare,
and, in fact, it could be that only the Germans had wire or steel tape
(sort of like a bandsaw blade) recorders at that time (Don't tell the
Rootin' Teuton I said so). If the sound were that well isolated, why
do the machnie gunes come through so well?
One last thing - This is supposed to be a Lancaster or Halifax (I
makes no difference for this point) on a night raid. That means that
all the crew would be on Oxygen, and they'd be using the mask
microphones. I don't here anyone breathing. They're talking, I'd
bloody well expect them to be breathing.


I've only just caught up with this thread, so apologies if I'm repeating
anything that went before.

Breathing: If most of the crew were using their mask switches properly
they would only have the mike switch to 'on' immediately prior to
talking and would switch them off again when finished, so breathing
sounds should be at a minimum (although I seem to pick up one individual
who seems to be breathing without talking at times, perhaps WV-T?).
Mind you, a WWII era mask tends reflect and thus muffle the voice a bit,
and muffling is not very apparent in the recording.

However, there is much more that is suspect in this sequence. The pilot
is instructed to keep weaving after the navigator has announced half a
minute to go before bomb drop, and before the fighter puts in an
appearance. If the bomb aimer were staring through the bomb sight
stabilisation glass at that time, to get a straight run in on the
target, the last thing he would have wanted was a weave. And just who
is asking for the weave, and why? Then the pilot is told to steer
'left, left' without having been first told to stop weaving.

Then the pilot asks for more revs. Why - just at the time the bomb
aimer needs constant speed maintained for his bomb sight predicting
computer? This doesn't feel quite right.

Then the rear gunner opens up with his four Brownings and amid the noise
you can hear an individual gun start and stop cycling. Four Brownings,
at a total 80 rounds per second would sound more like a waterfall. Also
these shots did not have the timbre of a .303 to me, and although I'll
allow that recording circumstances might have made the shots sound
funny, what was picking them up? The mask mike of the rear gunner?
That might have picked up a muffled roar - and I guess we can assume it
would remain switched on in these circumstances so he can instruct the
pilot if need be. But would it pick up the crisp cycling gunshots from
outside the turret? There would be more clanging from the breeches if
anything.

Suspicious - but if Gord Beaman can recall the noise a couple of
Brownings made in the front turret I will be willing to be corrected.
Otherwise - more redolent of a few STENs being fired into a crate in the
BBC car park :-)

Finally, the pilot is instructed to weave again at a time when the
bomber should have been flying straight and level for the post-drop
picture to be taken - which would have resulted in a VERY nice piccy of
the drop zone.

I am sure that Wynford VT really did fly that night and his journalistic
skills were put to good use, but this sequence does not add up as a
complete real time item.


Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth
  #64  
Old October 6th 03, 01:40 PM
Keith Willshaw
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"Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message
...


Finally, the pilot is instructed to weave again at a time when the
bomber should have been flying straight and level for the post-drop
picture to be taken - which would have resulted in a VERY nice piccy of
the drop zone.


Especially when you recall that no picture meant that the mission
didnt count towards the tour total.

Keith


  #65  
Old October 7th 03, 04:52 AM
Pooh Bear
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Brian wrote:

Sounds fake - too calm - even considering the Brit resolve.


Yup - quality is far too high for recording methods of the day and, to a
Brit, the voices don't have the correct 'period feel' - sound like ppl
today.


Graham

  #66  
Old October 8th 03, 01:54 AM
John Halliwell
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In article , Blair Maynard
writes
It could be a genuine recording. Did you know they have actual recordings of
Snoopy shooting down the Red Baron during WW1? Yeah, I think it was recorded
by a company called the Royal Guardsmen or something....


Red Guardsmen I think, quite a nice track as well!

--
John
 




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