Fixes provided in routing for IFR flight plans - VFR waypoints okay?

I can't find any guidelines on the type of fixes or waypoints to be
included in the routing description of an IFR flight plan. I presume
you can use things like VORs and (?) airports, as well as airways and
anything indicated on IFR charts or procedures. But can you also use
VPxxx waypoints or other VFR fixes?

The reason for asking is that I'm wondering if a VFR flight plan with
detailed routing that lists specific waypoints and fixes can be easily
converted to IFR without changing the routing, should weather or other
factors mandate a switch to IFR for the flight.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

converted to IFR without changing the routing, should weather or other
factors mandate a switch to IFR for the flight.

Hey y'all,

This guy has been trolling the rec.aviation.piloting and
rec.aviation.student newsgroups.

He does not fly a real plane, just plays games on MSFS.

If you could ignore this guy, it sure would be appreciated.

Otherwise, the noise level in this group will rocket sky high.

Allen

In article ,
A Lieberma wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

converted to IFR without changing the routing, should weather or other
factors mandate a switch to IFR for the flight.

Hey y'all,

This guy has been trolling the rec.aviation.piloting and
rec.aviation.student newsgroups.

He does not fly a real plane, just plays games on MSFS.

He can't afford a real plane, so he's doing the best he can. He asks
reasonable questions under the circumstances.

If you could ignore this guy, it sure would be appreciated.

Why should we ignore him when you don't?

Otherwise, the noise level in this group will rocket sky high.

IMHO you are contributing much more noise than mxsmanic does. At least
he talks about flying.

rg

Mxsmanic wrote:
I can't find any guidelines on the type of fixes or waypoints to be
included in the routing description of an IFR flight plan. I presume
you can use things like VORs and (?) airports, as well as airways and
anything indicated on IFR charts or procedures. But can you also use
VPxxx waypoints or other VFR fixes?

You can clearly use anything that defines an airway (but not T-airways),
and ground-based navaids like VORs and NDBs, unless specifically tagged
as "VFR Use Only". You specifically may not use VPxxx waypoints.

The reason for asking is that I'm wondering if a VFR flight plan with
detailed routing that lists specific waypoints and fixes can be easily
converted to IFR without changing the routing, should weather or other
factors mandate a switch to IFR for the flight.

You can google for a long-ago thread that describes how to file a VFR
flight plan that actually goes to ATC. If ATC doesn't have your flight
plan, you're starting from scratch when you want to convert from VFR to IFR.

Basically you check the "IFR" box on the flight plan form, then in the
altitude box you write "VFR045" for 4500 feet (or something like that).
Someone will correct me.

If you don't check the IFR box, ATC never sees your flight plan, just FSS.

Another advantage of this technique is that when you call up the next
facility for VFR advisories, they already know who you are and where you
are going. When the initial controller "departs" you, it initiates
sending a strip to each of the facilities down the line based on your
filed airspeed, just like for an IFR flight.

There was a lot of discussion about whether it is legal to check the IFR
box on the flight plan form if you don't hold an instrument rating.
Clearly the answer is yes, it is legal [dons flameproof suit].

B A R R Y wrote in news:52mbh.16922$9v5.15977
@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:

I just thought of an "freebie" that might be of interest to you in your
sim realism, "Sporty's Study Buddy":
http://sportys.com/faatest/study/ Sporty's Study Buddy is more of a
"learn the answers to the questions" system than a true course, but it's
free.

I was also going to suggest an online ground school, like King's:
http://www.kingschools.com/, but I remember money is tight. Since you
have no interest in actually flying, and won't actually have to pass a
current written / oral exam, watching eBay for an outdated ground school
video course (cheap, of course! G) might be worthwhile.

Hey Barry,

You are wasting your time.

Mx isn't going to give your references the time of day..... Others have
pointed him to many different sites.

Unfortunately, looks like Mx is now polluting the rec.aviation.ifr group

:-(

Allen

Mxsmanic wrote:

The reason for asking is that I'm wondering if a VFR flight plan with
detailed routing that lists specific waypoints and fixes can be easily
converted to IFR without changing the routing, should weather or other
factors mandate a switch to IFR for the flight.

You use IFR chart features on an IFR plan. Items like VOR, NDB, and
airports with instrument approaches are on IFR Charts. Another
document, known as the AF/D, or "Airport Facility Directory", lists
"preferred routes", which ATC will usually put you on regardless of what
you try to file.

AF/D's are free he
http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_afd

The "supplemental" section has the IFR routes 40 or so pages in. You
can also look up restricted airspace, noise abatement corridors, etc...
so you can keep the simulated Baron out of simulated trouble and prevent
****ing off the simulated noise-sensitive residents (simulated Skylune?
G) you're flying over.

It is possible to file a flight plan that uses both IFR and VFR
portions. This is known as a "composite" flight plan.

I just thought of an "freebie" that might be of interest to you in your
sim realism, "Sporty's Study Buddy":
http://sportys.com/faatest/study/ Sporty's Study Buddy is more of a
"learn the answers to the questions" system than a true course, but it's
free.

I was also going to suggest an online ground school, like King's:
http://www.kingschools.com/, but I remember money is tight. Since you
have no interest in actually flying, and won't actually have to pass a
current written / oral exam, watching eBay for an outdated ground school
video course (cheap, of course! G) might be worthwhile.

As filed, flight plans are not flown. VFR might well be
just as simple as telling FSS VFR, Washington DC ,
Indianapolis, St. Louis, Destination Kansas City [the phrase
close enough for government work comes to mind.]
My actual plan would have many points for visual and radio
navigation.

An IFR plan is more detailed, but might only have a
departure airport, a SID and airway and a STAR and might
only have the airway, the feds will assign the SID and STAR
anyway.




"B A R R Y" wrote in message
. net...
| Mxsmanic wrote:
|
| The reason for asking is that I'm wondering if a VFR
flight plan with
| detailed routing that lists specific waypoints and fixes
can be easily
| converted to IFR without changing the routing, should
weather or other
| factors mandate a switch to IFR for the flight.
|
| You use IFR chart features on an IFR plan. Items like
VOR, NDB, and
| airports with instrument approaches are on IFR Charts.
Another
| document, known as the AF/D, or "Airport Facility
Directory", lists
| "preferred routes", which ATC will usually put you on
regardless of what
| you try to file.
|
| AF/D's are free he
| http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_afd
|
| The "supplemental" section has the IFR routes 40 or so
pages in. You
| can also look up restricted airspace, noise abatement
corridors, etc...
| so you can keep the simulated Baron out of simulated
trouble and prevent
| ****ing off the simulated noise-sensitive residents
(simulated Skylune?
| G) you're flying over.
|
| It is possible to file a flight plan that uses both IFR
and VFR
| portions. This is known as a "composite" flight plan.
|
| I just thought of an "freebie" that might be of interest
to you in your
| sim realism, "Sporty's Study Buddy":
| http://sportys.com/faatest/study/ Sporty's Study
Buddy is more of a
| "learn the answers to the questions" system than a true
course, but it's
| free.
|
| I was also going to suggest an online ground school, like
King's:
| http://www.kingschools.com/, but I remember money is
tight. Since you
| have no interest in actually flying, and won't actually
have to pass a
| current written / oral exam, watching eBay for an outdated
ground school
| video course (cheap, of course! G) might be worthwhile.

Dave Butler writes:

You can clearly use anything that defines an airway (but not T-airways),
and ground-based navaids like VORs and NDBs, unless specifically tagged
as "VFR Use Only". You specifically may not use VPxxx waypoints.

OK. So I'd probably be better off avoiding VPxxx waypoints to begin
with, even for VFR, if there's any chance that I'd want to use that as
a base for an IFR flight plan. Too bad ... there's lots of VPxxx
waypoints on the VFR charts, whereas the only other ones indicated are
on airways, and there are a lot less of those (at least in high
traffic areas).

Basically you check the "IFR" box on the flight plan form, then in the
altitude box you write "VFR045" for 4500 feet (or something like that).
Someone will correct me.

Hmm ... I didn't know that.

Another advantage of this technique is that when you call up the next
facility for VFR advisories, they already know who you are and where you
are going. When the initial controller "departs" you, it initiates
sending a strip to each of the facilities down the line based on your
filed airspeed, just like for an IFR flight.

Sounds very convenient.

Is there someplace on the Web that discusses everything you can
validly put in an IFR flight plan (or a VFR flight plan, for that
matter)? I can't find any detailed descriptions in the references
I've looked at.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

B A R R Y writes:

You use IFR chart features on an IFR plan.

Is there any place that has IFR charts online, like SkyVector does for
VFR charts?

AF/D's are free he
http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_afd

I'm trying to download that now.

The "supplemental" section has the IFR routes 40 or so pages in. You
can also look up restricted airspace, noise abatement corridors, etc...
so you can keep the simulated Baron out of simulated trouble and prevent
****ing off the simulated noise-sensitive residents (simulated Skylune?
G) you're flying over.

I have simulated lawyers to protect me, but your point is well taken.

It is possible to file a flight plan that uses both IFR and VFR
portions. This is known as a "composite" flight plan.

Well, I can't even find the details on how to file a basic flight
plan, like what all the slash notations mean or guidelines for giving
the routing information or anything. I found the paper form itself
online, but no instructions.

I just thought of an "freebie" that might be of interest to you in your
sim realism, "Sporty's Study Buddy":
http://sportys.com/faatest/study/ Sporty's Study Buddy is more of a
"learn the answers to the questions" system than a true course, but it's
free.

I won't be taking an actual test any time soon, so I'm more interested
in detailed answers than in rote responses to test questions, but I'll
keep it in mind.

I was also going to suggest an online ground school, like King's:
http://www.kingschools.com/, but I remember money is tight.

Yes. Unfortunately, anything that isn't free right now is out of the
question.

Since you
have no interest in actually flying, and won't actually have to pass a
current written / oral exam, watching eBay for an outdated ground school
video course (cheap, of course! G) might be worthwhile.

What does ground school cover that isn't in the downloadable stuff
from the FAA? I remember my father taking a ground school course
endless years ago and a big fat book that came with it, but I don't
recall anything else.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:

Is there someplace on the Web that discusses everything you can
validly put in an IFR flight plan (or a VFR flight plan, for that
matter)? I can't find any detailed descriptions in the references
I've looked at.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff.../media/aim.pdf