A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 29th 05, 03:46 PM
Kris Kortokrax
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

While posting changes in my Jepp book last night, I came across the
following change to the AIM.

Kris

Old text

5-4-9. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to
perform a course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an
intermediate or final approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of
procedure turn is a required maneuver. The procedure turn is not required
when the symbol "No PT" is shown, when RADAR VECTORING to the final approach
course is provided, when conducting a timed approach, or when the procedure
turn is not authorized.

New text

5-4-9. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed to perform a course reversal
to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final approach
course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn is a required
maneuver

(the following text is underlined in the AIM)
when it is necessary to perform a course reversal.

The procedure turn is not required when the symbol "No PT" is shown, when
RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when conducting a
timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not authorized.



  #2  
Old September 29th 05, 04:10 PM
rps
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Doesn't the underlining just mean that the text was added?

I guess the FAA is just stating the obvious: you don't need to do a PT
when you're already inbound.

  #3  
Old September 29th 05, 04:21 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

rps wrote:
Doesn't the underlining just mean that the text was added?

I guess the FAA is just stating the obvious: you don't need to do a PT
when you're already inbound.

That's not what they are saying at all. You could be inbound yet not
have arrived via a vector to final, a timed approach, or a NoPT route.

Usually, that would mean that you're too high to go straight-in, at
least by the standards used in TERPS for descent gradients.
  #4  
Old September 29th 05, 04:25 PM
150flivver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This was discussed on the AOPA's board. The FAA did not intend to
change the meaning--it was supposed to be a clarification. The
procedure turn remains required even if your course happenes to be
aligned with the inbound course unless the symbol "No PT" is shown,
when RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when
conducting a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not
authorized.

I'd ask the controller for permission to proceed inbound sans procedure
turn if that's what I wanted to do.

  #5  
Old September 29th 05, 04:35 PM
Dave Butler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


I'd ask the controller for permission to proceed inbound sans procedure
turn if that's what I wanted to do.


The controller's permission doesn't absolve you of the requirement to follow the
FARs. You could ask for a vector.
  #6  
Old September 29th 05, 04:37 PM
Scott Skylane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

150flivver wrote:
/snip/

I'd ask the controller for permission to proceed inbound sans procedure
turn if that's what I wanted to do.


Just because a controller lets you do something, doesn't make it legal
or safe.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
  #7  
Old September 29th 05, 04:48 PM
Kris Kortokrax
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"rps" wrote in message
oups.com...
Doesn't the underlining just mean that the text was added?

Jeppesen places a vertical line at the side of the page to indicate
changed/added text.
The text was moved, not added. It was italicized in the Jeppesen edition
and underlined in the FAA online version.
My guess is that it is underlined for emphasis.

Kris


  #8  
Old September 29th 05, 05:20 PM
Doug
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I see a change here. The procedure turn is NOW required IF a course
reversal is necessary. If you are straight in, or nearly so, but NOT on
radar vectors there is no longer any regulatory requirement to do a
procedure turn. I have never seen sense operationally to do one if I am
straight in and at the right altitude. Actually to clear this up, I
think they need to clarify how many degrees off constitutes a "course
reversal". I for one disagreed with having to do a proc turn when I am
straight in, on altitude and ready to continue, and under those
circumstances never would do one anyway, based on the safety of the
flight. If you aren't under radar vectors it's pretty much always one
in or one out at the airport at time, so it's not a matter of timing
seperation, ATC gives you the full area of the approach PT or no, so
that has never been an issue.

  #9  
Old September 29th 05, 06:03 PM
rps
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I agree. The online AIM also indicates the underlined text. See
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#5-4-9:

"a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed to perform a course
reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn
is a required maneuver when it is necessary to perform a course
reversal."

Thus, if you're already inbound on the final course (assuming you're at
the altitude the procedure requires), no PT is required.

  #10  
Old September 29th 05, 08:34 PM
Gary Drescher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Kris Kortokrax" wrote in message
...
New text

5-4-9. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed to perform a course
reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn is a
required maneuver

(the following text is underlined in the AIM)
when it is necessary to perform a course reversal.

The procedure turn is not required when the symbol "No PT" is shown, when
RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when conducting
a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not authorized.


The new text strikes me as entirely ambiguous. It could mean:

"The procedure turn is a required maneuver, unless one of the following
conditions obtains, in which case a course reversal is unnecessary: 1) the
symbol 'NoPT' is shown; 2) radar vectoring to the final approach course is
provided; 3) you are conducting a timed approach; or 4) the procedure turn
is not authorized."

Or it could mean:

"The procedure turn is a required maneuver, unless: 1) the symbol 'NoPT' is
shown; 2) radar vectoring to the final approach course is provided; 3) you
are conducting a timed approach; or 4) the procedure turn is not authorized;
or 5) there is (for any reason) no necessity to perform a course reversal."

The two interpretations differ if conditions 1-4 don't obtain, but the pilot
(and/or controller) thinks there's no need for a course reversal. The first
interpretation says the procedure turn is still required in that case; the
second one says the opposite.

--Gary


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question A Lieberman Instrument Flight Rules 18 January 30th 05 05:51 PM
Required hold? Nicholas Kliewer Instrument Flight Rules 22 November 14th 04 02:38 AM
more radial fans like fw190? jt Military Aviation 51 August 28th 04 04:22 AM
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools RT Military Aviation 104 September 25th 03 03:17 PM
IFR in the 1930's Rich S. Home Built 43 September 21st 03 01:03 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.