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Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 6th 04, 05:25 PM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
Jack writes:
On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:35:38 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
wrote:


Bush did that.


I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more
dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously
gamed the system to get out of his tour early.


LOL.....sure, you could argue it, but you'd be wrong. An interceptor
unit in Texas flying soon to be obsolete aircraft was not exactly the
'Tip of the Spear' of national defense.


Better get youself a map, then, son, and a copy of "Air Force Combat
Wings: Lineage and Histories, 1947-1977", Charles Ravenstein,
ed. Government Printing Office, Washingron, DC, 1984, GPS Stock Number
008-070-00519-1, ISBM 0912799129

and

"Prelude to the Total Force: Air National Guard. 1943-1969", Charles
J, Gross, Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, 1984

You'll find the following interesting facts: Since 1955, all ANG
Fighter Interceptor Squadrons were required to meed the same
training. readiness, adn availability standards as Active Component
FIS's including having airplanes on Zulu Alert (5-minute alert) at all
times.

Trom the 1st of each Calendatr year, here's a listing of the USAF/ANG
Air Defence units in the Southeastern U.S., back to the Texas Gulf
Coast.
1968:
USAF: 319th FIS, Homestead AFB, FL, F-104A
444th FIS, Charleston AFB, SC, F-101B
4780th ADW Perrin AFB, TX, F-102A (Training unit, with alert
commitment)
Air Defence Weapons Center, Tyndall AFB, F-102, F0191B, F0106
(Training unit, with alert comittment)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX ANG, Ellington AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
182nd FIS TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A

During the tail end of the Johnson Administration, there was a huge
draw-down of USAF AIr Defence Assets. This left:
1969:
USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU)
ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
182nd FIS, TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A

The ANG's role increased as we went into the 1970s:
1970:
USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU)
ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A

Things stayed pretty much the same, until late 1971, when the 4780th
ADW closed up shop at Perring AFB, and _all_ F-102 training was
the responsibility of the 111th FIS, TX ANG.

Which leaves in, in 1972, with the following:
USAF: ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A - F-101B
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A

Note that at the time, there was, in fact, a very real threat to teh
U.S. coast of the Gulf of Mexico - both from the Cuban FRAC Il-28 jet
bomber regiment based at San Cristobal, (And, as it turned out,
nuclear capable - we hadn't known the the Soviets had sent a nuclear
delivery specialist Il-28 squadron to Cuba as part of their buildup
that caused the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that the airplanes hadn't
been removed when the missiles were withdrawn, and from the Soviet
Tu-95s which rotated through Cuba on a regular basis all through the
1960s through the 1980s. Tht may not seem to be very much to you -
but if you've got nothing to counter them with, they're damned
effective.

As for the F-102 being obsolete, or "Second Line", it's worth noting
that the USAF, at that time, had 3 F-102 Squadrons in Southeast Asia
(Two of which had transferred from the Continental U.S.), 6 in Europe,
and several in the Continental U.S., Alaska, and Iceland. (Note that
many of the F-102 pilots in Soatheast Asia and Europe were ANG Pilots
posted as individuals under the Palace Alert program.

For an obsolete airplane, it stayed in the hot spots for an awfully
long time.

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission
without disappearing for a year.


Here's a hint - the airplane doesn't know or care if you're rich or
poor, or if you think someone's got political pull. It's just as
ready to kill you no matter what. Pull _might_ get you into an ANG
unit. (And the idea of a former Republican Congressman having being
able to pull strings in Johnson-dominated Texas is so bizzare that the
Twilight Zone wouldn't have filmed it) But it won't get you through
UPT, it won't get you through Transition Training, and it won't get
you Mission Qualified on the aircraft. The macine doesn't care - rich
or poor, if you screw up, you're dead. What it won't tolerate is
stupidity.


When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.


Mandatory drug testing didn't start until 1974-75, after Bush had
completed his service. You seem, like a lot of kids today, to have
problems with this "chronology" thing - the idea that anything that
occurred before you were born didn't happen in a bizzare jumble of
simultanaety.

All his life Bush has had others to make excuses for him and cover up
his failures. That still holds true today.


To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what
they say...... Jack


Whereas you do nothing, and say nothing. Thet pretty much says it.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #22  
Old September 6th 04, 06:15 PM
Bob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:01:40 -0400, Dweezil Dwarftosser
wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


Wasn't John Edwards like Dick Cheney? Wasn't he in college prior to the
draft lottery?


Naw, Cheney was never a scum-sicking ambulance chaser, and
never was responsible for quadrupling the cost of health care
in his home state.
Besides, Edwards was in high school prior to the lottery which
came about during the final two years of the VN war.


John Edwards
Born June 10, 1953
Lottery #178
http://www.sss.gov/lotter4.htm
"This lottery was conducted for men who would have been called in
1973; however, no new draft orders were issued after 1972."


  #23  
Old September 6th 04, 07:38 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dweezil Dwarftosser" wrote in message
...

Besides, Edwards was in high school prior to the lottery which
came about during the final two years of the VN war.


Yeah, born in June 1953. I thought he was a bit older than that.

Still, he chose not to serve in the military, so by current Democratic
standards he's unfit to hold the office he seeks.


  #25  
Old September 7th 04, 02:32 AM
Steve Hix
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Jack wrote:

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.


A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.

You keep forgetting that...
  #26  
Old September 7th 04, 05:26 AM
Tank Fixer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
on 05 Sep 2004 17:33:35 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

Bush did that.


Prove it

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
  #27  
Old September 7th 04, 03:29 PM
Jack
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:25:04 -0400, (Peter Stickney)
wrote:

In article ,
Jack writes:
On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:35:38 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
wrote:


Bush did that.

I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more
dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously
gamed the system to get out of his tour early.


LOL.....sure, you could argue it, but you'd be wrong. An interceptor
unit in Texas flying soon to be obsolete aircraft was not exactly the
'Tip of the Spear' of national defense.


Better get youself a map, then, son, and a copy of "Air Force Combat
Wings: Lineage and Histories, 1947-1977", Charles Ravenstein,
ed. Government Printing Office, Washingron, DC, 1984, GPS Stock Number
008-070-00519-1, ISBM 0912799129

and

"Prelude to the Total Force: Air National Guard. 1943-1969", Charles
J, Gross, Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, 1984

You'll find the following interesting facts: Since 1955, all ANG
Fighter Interceptor Squadrons were required to meed the same
training. readiness, adn availability standards as Active Component
FIS's including having airplanes on Zulu Alert (5-minute alert) at all
times.

Trom the 1st of each Calendatr year, here's a listing of the USAF/ANG
Air Defence units in the Southeastern U.S., back to the Texas Gulf
Coast.
1968:
USAF: 319th FIS, Homestead AFB, FL, F-104A
444th FIS, Charleston AFB, SC, F-101B
4780th ADW Perrin AFB, TX, F-102A (Training unit, with alert
commitment)
Air Defence Weapons Center, Tyndall AFB, F-102, F0191B, F0106
(Training unit, with alert comittment)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX ANG, Ellington AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
182nd FIS TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A

During the tail end of the Johnson Administration, there was a huge
draw-down of USAF AIr Defence Assets. This left:
1969:
USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU)
ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
182nd FIS, TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A

The ANG's role increased as we went into the 1970s:
1970:
USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU)
ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A

Things stayed pretty much the same, until late 1971, when the 4780th
ADW closed up shop at Perring AFB, and _all_ F-102 training was
the responsibility of the 111th FIS, TX ANG.

Which leaves in, in 1972, with the following:
USAF: ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A - F-101B
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A

Note that at the time, there was, in fact, a very real threat to teh
U.S. coast of the Gulf of Mexico - both from the Cuban FRAC Il-28 jet
bomber regiment based at San Cristobal, (And, as it turned out,
nuclear capable - we hadn't known the the Soviets had sent a nuclear
delivery specialist Il-28 squadron to Cuba as part of their buildup
that caused the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that the airplanes hadn't
been removed when the missiles were withdrawn, and from the Soviet
Tu-95s which rotated through Cuba on a regular basis all through the
1960s through the 1980s. Tht may not seem to be very much to you -
but if you've got nothing to counter them with, they're damned
effective.

As for the F-102 being obsolete, or "Second Line", it's worth noting
that the USAF, at that time, had 3 F-102 Squadrons in Southeast Asia
(Two of which had transferred from the Continental U.S.), 6 in Europe,
and several in the Continental U.S., Alaska, and Iceland. (Note that
many of the F-102 pilots in Soatheast Asia and Europe were ANG Pilots
posted as individuals under the Palace Alert program.

For an obsolete airplane, it stayed in the hot spots for an awfully
long time.


LOL.... well my friend, that was a rather lengthy diatribe that said
very little and proved nothing concerning the point of the original
comment. To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne
invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD.
Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat
is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely
event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern
Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked,
not some champaign unit in Texas. Yes, F-102's served in Viet Nam, as
did F-100's, O-2's, even A-1Skyraiders. All were considered obsolete
aircraft but fit a special niche requirement. No matter how you
attempt to spin it.... George W. Bush was in that unit specifically to
avoid combat.

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission
without disappearing for a year.


Here's a hint - the airplane doesn't know or care if you're rich or
poor, or if you think someone's got political pull. It's just as
ready to kill you no matter what. Pull _might_ get you into an ANG
unit. (And the idea of a former Republican Congressman having being
able to pull strings in Johnson-dominated Texas is so bizzare that the
Twilight Zone wouldn't have filmed it) But it won't get you through
UPT, it won't get you through Transition Training, and it won't get
you Mission Qualified on the aircraft. The macine doesn't care - rich
or poor, if you screw up, you're dead. What it won't tolerate is
stupidity.


Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude
test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants
who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck'
for George W. Bush! You're either extremely naive or so blinded by
partisanship you refuse to acknowledge the obvious. No, the aircraft
doesn't care if you're rich or poor or have political connections.
However, some of those in positions of authority, who made the
selections as to who got assigned to the few available slots obviously
did. The aircraft is simply a machine, it didn't do the recruiting!
Also, if you're implying Texas politics isn't and hasn't been
'bizzare' for the past 100 years, you have a lot to learn about Texas
and politics.

When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.


Mandatory drug testing didn't start until 1974-75, after Bush had
completed his service. You seem, like a lot of kids today, to have
problems with this "chronology" thing - the idea that anything that
occurred before you were born didn't happen in a bizzare jumble of
simultanaety.


Mandatory drug testing in conjunction with flight physicals, both in
the CONUS and overseas began in April, 1972. The flight physical
George W. Bush dodged was scheduled in August, 1972. I was in the
active duty Air Force, on flying status at the time, and am well aware
of the dates, thank you. That 'chronology' thing is a bitch, isn't
it.


All his life Bush has had others to make excuses for him and cover up
his failures. That still holds true today.


To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what
they say...... Jack


Whereas you do nothing, and say nothing. Thet pretty much says it.


Says what??.... LOL.... you amateur history revisionists crack me up!


To know the neocon chickenhawks ......... watch what they do .... not
what they say........ Jack
  #29  
Old September 7th 04, 03:45 PM
Jack
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
wrote:

In article ,
Jack wrote:

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.


A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.

You keep forgetting that...


No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
500 hours in the aircraft. George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.


To know the neocon chickenhawks ....... watch what they do .... not
what they say...... Jack



 




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