Requirement to fly departure procedures

Well, its in Subpart B Flight Rules. I presumed that must mean ifr
too. Also, 91.117 Aircraft speed is in same subpart. If it didn't
apply to ifr, then 250 kts below 10, 000 feet wouldnt either, no?
Stan

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:13:33 GMT, wrote:



Well, that is not in the IFR section of Part 91.....

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
wrote
I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:

"(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
for that airport by the FAA."

So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"

You are ignoring 91.129(b)
(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this
section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may
authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual
flight, as appropriate.

Your clearance direct to the fix constitutes ATC authorization to
deviate from 91.129(g)(1) for this individual flight.

Michael


What if I'm cleared to the fix but *want* to fly the departure procedure,
which takes me to the fix after some turns? Seems like I remember someone
quoting (I think from the ATC handbook) something like "... compliance with
a published departure procedure is at the discretion of the pilot...".
Where does that fit into this?

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

John Clonts wrote:



What if I'm cleared to the fix but *want* to fly the departure procedure,
which takes me to the fix after some turns? Seems like I remember someone
quoting (I think from the ATC handbook) something like "... compliance with
a published departure procedure is at the discretion of the pilot...".
Where does that fit into this?

It is at your discretion. The original poster asked if he had to fly a
DP on a good weather day when ATC says preoceed direct and the DP goes
out of the way. The answer is go direct. Terrain clearance is a nonfactor.

pstanley55 wrote:
I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:

"(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
for that airport by the FAA."

So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"

I use "Norcal Departure, Cherokee 123, requesting a turn to heading 100, we
can maintain our own terrain seperation." Works everytime - they get me on
my way, and I get out of their airspace quicker. This is especially useful
when flying to Monterey and both San Jose and Monterey are socked in, but
clear between. ATC gives you "climb and maintain 7000" when only 3000' is
required (if you know where the tower is). In this case I say "I'd like to
maintain 4000' - I'll maintain our own terrain seperation".

Hilton

Hilton wrote:

I use "Norcal Departure, Cherokee 123, requesting a turn to heading 100, we
can maintain our own terrain seperation." Works everytime - they get me on
my way, and I get out of their airspace quicker. This is especially useful
when flying to Monterey and both San Jose and Monterey are socked in, but
clear between. ATC gives you "climb and maintain 7000" when only 3000' is
required (if you know where the tower is). In this case I say "I'd like to
maintain 4000' - I'll maintain our own terrain seperation".

Hilton

That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area where
their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA, or
higher.

wrote:

Well, its in Subpart B Flight Rules. I presumed that must mean ifr
too. Also, 91.117 Aircraft speed is in same subpart. If it didn't
apply to ifr, then 250 kts below 10, 000 feet wouldnt either, no?
Stan

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:13:33 GMT, wrote:


Well, that is not in the IFR section of Part 91.....

"Departure Procedure" has a specific meaning for IFR operations. Speed
limit requirements do not.

I sent the previous post without including the following: If your
reading is correct then a student pilot would have to fly the IFR
departure procedure departing a Class D airport since it doesn't say
anything about pertaining just to IFR operations. ;-)

wrote:


That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area where
their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA, or
higher.


I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).

But you can still fly IFR visually maintaining terrain separation. Then ATC can clear you if they have no traffic conflicts. However you still have to remain more than 1000 ft above flatlands or 2000 ft above mountains--including the antenna. So, by doing this you might still be in violation of the FARs, but I doubt anyone cares.

Yes, now I see how to interpret the FAR. 129, besides stating
pilot must comply with any departure procedure, also in the next
sentence states applicable distance from clouds criteria need to be
followed. Clearly they are refering to vfr then.

Which brings up an interesting question. I use jepps, and perusing
through many airports (Mass for eg, Bedford, Boston, Hyannis,
Nantucket, lawrence, beverly, etc) I don't see *ANY* FAA departure
procedures (other than ifr).

Should I be perusing some other sources?
Where does one find departure procedures listed?

thanks, Stan


On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:13:33 GMT, wrote:



wrote:

OK, I see what you mean, and I'll take your word for it. But the FAR
does state "departure procedure", and the ifr departure procedure
would thus seem to be included as a "departure procedure". The FAR
should be re worded!

Well, that is not in the IFR section of Part 91, and it applies only to
departures at airports with operating control towers. It's basically a noise
rule.

As to the regulation not making that clear, some of those regs are written
without regard to another meaning for a term. Plus, there is a legal
interpretation that muddies it even further.

OK, you're right
Stan

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:52:17 GMT, wrote:



I sent the previous post without including the following: If your
reading is correct then a student pilot would have to fly the IFR
departure procedure departing a Class D airport since it doesn't say
anything about pertaining just to IFR operations. ;-)