Airliner landing technique

This isn't an IFR topic, but I figure there might be a heavy iron pilot
or two reading this. There's a thread on the FS group about landing
747/777 class airplanes. I've read that they typically kick out the
crab right before touchdown much as some lighter airplane pilots do.
Slips are out because of the risk of dragging an engine. However, a
number of folks there claim that the airliners are simply landed with
the crab angle held during the approach.

I know that the B-52 has gear designed to align for a crab landing and I
think one or two models of the 747 may have this as well, but everything
I've read always said that standard procedure with airliners was to
remove the crab before touchdown. And this is certainly what has been
done on almost all airline flights I've made.

Any '47 or '77 or similar pilots here who can comment on the generally
accepted technique for crosswing landings in the heavy machines?

I searched around this evening and found a number of sources that
claimed both methods are the "right" method, but no source that I'd
consider authoritative.

Matt

I can't speak to the 747 or 777, but I can the 767 and L-1011. There is
always controversy about it, but the truth is in watching the autopilot do
an auto-land. It's all crab until about 150 feet, HAT, where the autopilot
goes into align mode; that is it transitions from crab to wing down into the
wind with a slight amount of upwind rudder. This last throughout the flare
to touchdown.

Good pilots manually land those models using the same technique. So long as
the certificated cross-wind limits are observed and the technique is done
correctly you won't scrape an engine.

The most critical airplane with which I was familiar for scrapping an
outboard engine was the 707. There, you had to observe a 5-degree bank angle
limit, so in a 30 knot cross-wind some combination slip and crab became
necessary. If it is just crab it is really tough to "kick it out" at the
last moment without it becoming a spectacular event.

Matt Whiting wrote:

This isn't an IFR topic, but I figure there might be a heavy iron pilot
or two reading this. There's a thread on the FS group about landing
747/777 class airplanes. I've read that they typically kick out the
crab right before touchdown much as some lighter airplane pilots do.
Slips are out because of the risk of dragging an engine. However, a
number of folks there claim that the airliners are simply landed with
the crab angle held during the approach.

I know that the B-52 has gear designed to align for a crab landing and I
think one or two models of the 747 may have this as well, but everything
I've read always said that standard procedure with airliners was to
remove the crab before touchdown. And this is certainly what has been
done on almost all airline flights I've made.

Any '47 or '77 or similar pilots here who can comment on the generally
accepted technique for crosswing landings in the heavy machines?

I searched around this evening and found a number of sources that
claimed both methods are the "right" method, but no source that I'd
consider authoritative.

Matt

wrote:

I can't speak to the 747 or 777, but I can the 767 and L-1011. There is
always controversy about it, but the truth is in watching the autopilot do
an auto-land. It's all crab until about 150 feet, HAT, where the autopilot
goes into align mode; that is it transitions from crab to wing down into the
wind with a slight amount of upwind rudder. This last throughout the flare
to touchdown.

Good pilots manually land those models using the same technique. So long as
the certificated cross-wind limits are observed and the technique is done
correctly you won't scrape an engine.

The most critical airplane with which I was familiar for scrapping an
outboard engine was the 707. There, you had to observe a 5-degree bank angle
limit, so in a 30 knot cross-wind some combination slip and crab became
necessary. If it is just crab it is really tough to "kick it out" at the
last moment without it becoming a spectacular event.

Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.

I searched on Avweb and found an article about this by Deakin. He also
advocates kicking out the crab on all airplanes up to and including the
747, unless they have gear designed to be landed in a crab (B-52 and a
few others). However, I don't think the folks on the simulator group
believe it.

Why would kicking out the crab become a spectacular event?

Matt

The spectacular event would be touching down with the crab still in...


Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

Matt Whiting wrote:

wrote:

I can't speak to the 747 or 777, but I can the 767 and L-1011. There is
always controversy about it, but the truth is in watching the
autopilot do
an auto-land. It's all crab until about 150 feet, HAT, where the
autopilot
goes into align mode; that is it transitions from crab to wing down
into the
wind with a slight amount of upwind rudder. This last throughout the
flare
to touchdown.

Good pilots manually land those models using the same technique. So
long as
the certificated cross-wind limits are observed and the technique is done
correctly you won't scrape an engine.

The most critical airplane with which I was familiar for scrapping an
outboard engine was the 707. There, you had to observe a 5-degree bank
angle
limit, so in a 30 knot cross-wind some combination slip and crab became
necessary. If it is just crab it is really tough to "kick it out" at the
last moment without it becoming a spectacular event.


Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.

I searched on Avweb and found an article about this by Deakin. He also
advocates kicking out the crab on all airplanes up to and including the
747, unless they have gear designed to be landed in a crab (B-52 and a
few others). However, I don't think the folks on the simulator group
believe it.

Why would kicking out the crab become a spectacular event?

Matt

Jon Kraus wrote:

The spectacular event would be touching down with the crab still in...


Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

Matt Whiting wrote:

wrote:

I can't speak to the 747 or 777, but I can the 767 and L-1011. There is
always controversy about it, but the truth is in watching the
autopilot do
an auto-land. It's all crab until about 150 feet, HAT, where the
autopilot
goes into align mode; that is it transitions from crab to wing down
into the
wind with a slight amount of upwind rudder. This last throughout the
flare
to touchdown.

Good pilots manually land those models using the same technique. So
long as
the certificated cross-wind limits are observed and the technique is
done
correctly you won't scrape an engine.

The most critical airplane with which I was familiar for scrapping an
outboard engine was the 707. There, you had to observe a 5-degree
bank angle
limit, so in a 30 knot cross-wind some combination slip and crab became
necessary. If it is just crab it is really tough to "kick it out" at
the
last moment without it becoming a spectacular event.



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.

I searched on Avweb and found an article about this by Deakin. He
also advocates kicking out the crab on all airplanes up to and
including the 747, unless they have gear designed to be landed in a
crab (B-52 and a few others). However, I don't think the folks on the
simulator group believe it.

Why would kicking out the crab become a spectacular event?

Matt



I suspect there is more to it than that, but we'll have to wait for
Tim's reply.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.

I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going to collapse.

Matt Whiting wrote

Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact?

YES

This is what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group
who says he is a retired "heavy" captain.

Quoting from my PanAm B-707 Flight Manual

" CROSSWIND LANDINGS

Make a normal approach. Maintain runway alignment by
crabbing. Before touchdown, gradually remove as much
of the crab as possible with rudder. It may be necessary
to land with some crab angle if the crosswind is high.
This presents no problem if the angle is not excessive
and the flightpath is aligned with the runway.

CAUTION

Touchdown with a large crab angle and the wings level
may result in a rapid rising of the upwind wing and may
cause an engine nacelle to drag on the runway.

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)
17 years in the grand old 707
6 years as 707 instructor/check airman

wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.


I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going to collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.



I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going
to collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.

Typo: I meant "saying." His references appeared completely legitimate
so it appears that landing in a crab is acceptable technique in at least
some airplanes (he referenced the F-16 and a couple of others).

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.


I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going to
collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.


Matt

I flew, as a qualified pilot/instructor pilot, the T-38, B-52 and B-1B in
the AF. The T-38, hardly a heavy, was landed fully crabbed into the wind.
As has already been mentioned, the gear was turned in the B-52 to align with
the rwy so that effectively had the aircraft crabbed into the wind, and in
the B-1B, you crabbed until short final, approaching the over run, where you
aligned yourself with the rwy hdg in a wing low attitude and landed on the
upwind truck, just like in a 172.

JB