Airliner landing technique

Typo: I meant "saying." His references appeared completely legitimate
so it appears that landing in a crab is acceptable technique in at least
some airplanes (he referenced the F-16 and a couple of others).

Matt

It's a fact F16 can be crab landed with a max crosswind of 25 knots

Matt Whiting wrote:

wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.


I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going to collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.

Matt

He sounds like a phony to me.

yupyupxav wrote:

Typo: I meant "saying." His references appeared completely legitimate
so it appears that landing in a crab is acceptable technique in at least
some airplanes (he referenced the F-16 and a couple of others).

Matt

It's a fact F16 can be crab landed with a max crosswind of 25 knots

An F-16 is a very different beast than an air transport jet.

wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:


wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.


I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going to collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.

Matt


He sounds like a phony to me.


He's no phony. He's the founder of this organization:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/ifpf_history.htm

I still disagree with him IN GENERAL (several exceptions have been
discussed) about landing airplanes, especially heavies, in a crab,
however he seems to have impressive credentials.


Matt

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 122...

CROSSWIND LANDINGS

Make a normal approach. Maintain runway alignment by
crabbing. Before touchdown, gradually remove as much
of the crab as possible with rudder. It may be necessary
to land with some crab angle if the crosswind is high.
This presents no problem if the angle is not excessive
and the flightpath is aligned with the runway.

I had an interesting experience about a year ago when I went for a week of
IFR training in the BE76 Duchess. Most of my flying has been done on the
M20J ("Gear? Nah we just glued wheels on...") and the PA30, which, though
better than the M20J in crosswinds, still has its vices.

The BE76 was, by comparison, a complete no-brainer from landing #1. You
just point it in roughly the right direction and a combination of its
momentum and the trailing link gear does the rest. By the end of the week
I'd even forgotten all the one-liners I use with my passengers to laugh away
bad landings... ;-)

It strikes me that the technique used in any aircraft type is likely to be
dependent on how much residual crab angle you can get away with. With no
other considerations, you'd always land an aircraft with no crab angle: but
when some crab angle is acceptable, you might as well use that capability to
manage down any other risks, like kicking off the crab too early.

In a sense it's a bit like the question of why airliners fly wings level
even under asymmetric power. The best answer I heard was :"because they
*can*".

Julian Scarfe

Matt Whiting wrote:

wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:


wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.



I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going
to collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.

Matt



He sounds like a phony to me.


He's no phony. He's the founder of this organization:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/ifpf_history.htm

I still disagree with him IN GENERAL (several exceptions have been
discussed) about landing airplanes, especially heavies, in a crab,
however he seems to have impressive credentials.

Here's an explanation by a highly qualified (F-4G, F-16, and B-52) USAF
pilot:

" In landing the B-52 with its very long wings, it is imperative to
have the wings level through touchdown, the landing "trucks" aligned
with the runway, and the aircraft fuselage crabbed in to the wind.

On final approach, the crew notes the wind speed and direction
and, using a handy "crosswind landing chart," computes the number of
degrees that the landing "trucks" must be offset to ensure they are
aligned down the runway on landing. Then the pilot or copilot reaches
down to a mechanism sitting between the pilots and "dials in" the
appropriate number of degrees of offset for the trucks. This procedure
is accomplished for EVERY landing.

As I recall, normal (non wartime) procedures routinely allowed
for 20 degrees of offset. More offset is possible but slightly
uncomfortable for the new pilot making such a landing as he will not be
looking straight ahead at touchdown but rather he will be looking toward
his left or right shoulder."

wrote:

I can't speak to the 747 or 777, but I can the 767 and L-1011. There is
always controversy about it, but the truth is in watching the autopilot do
an auto-land. It's all crab until about 150 feet, HAT, where the autopilot
goes into align mode; that is it transitions from crab to wing down into the
wind with a slight amount of upwind rudder. This last throughout the flare
^^^^^^
downwind rudder, surely.
CV

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:


wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This
is what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he
is a retired "heavy" captain.


I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going
to collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.

Matt


He sounds like a phony to me.


He's no phony. He's the founder of this organization:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/ifpf_history.htm

I still disagree with him IN GENERAL (several exceptions have been
discussed) about landing airplanes, especially heavies, in a crab,
however he seems to have impressive credentials.


Matt


Just cause the guy signed his name Dudley Henriques doesn't mean he is
Dudley Henriques...

Judah wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote in
:


wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



wrote:



Matt Whiting wrote:




Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This
is what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he
is a retired "heavy" captain.


I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going
to collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.

Matt


He sounds like a phony to me.


He's no phony. He's the founder of this organization:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/ifpf_history.htm

I still disagree with him IN GENERAL (several exceptions have been
discussed) about landing airplanes, especially heavies, in a crab,
however he seems to have impressive credentials.


Matt



Just cause the guy signed his name Dudley Henriques doesn't mean he is
Dudley Henriques...

True. The rest of that ng thinks he is and I have no significant reason
to think otherwise, but you are correct in that I don't know for certain
who is behind the keyboard.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:


wrote:


Matt Whiting wrote:



Did you ever intentionally land with the crab angle intact? This is
what is advocated by a gentleman on the MSFS group who says he is a
retired "heavy" captain.


I saw it done once in a 707 and I thought the landing gear was going to collapse.


He posted a bunch of references daying that landing with crab was SOP
for airlines and the military. I find it hard to believe and it
contradicts most everything I've read on the subject, but I don't fly
heavies so all I know is what I read.

Matt


He sounds like a phony to me.


He's no phony. He's the founder of this organization:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/ifpf_history.htm



Well, he *is* a phony as to claiming that he understands how to fly transport category
civil jets.

Mr. Moore from Pan Am stated it exactly right and I was at TWA, where we did the same.
And, I have ridden the jump seat of many airlines in my commuting days and they all do
it the same.

Mr. Moore added a caveat that applied to the 707 in particular about accepting some crab
in a strong cross-wind, but that caveat does not apply to most airliners. The 707 had
about the lowest pods in the business, if not the lowest.