automotive parts on airplane engines

Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
starter on a C85?

Thanks,

Wallace

Wallace Berry wrote in message ...
Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
starter on a C85?

Thanks,

Wallace

The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
and say that if you do and something happens and they find
non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.

KJSDCAUSA

In article ,
(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:

Wallace Berry wrote in message
...
Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
starter on a C85?

Thanks,

Wallace

The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
and say that if you do and something happens and they find
non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.

KJSDCAUSA

Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
the "Hemingway" starter.

Wallace

Owned a shop where we wholesale repaired auto starters and generators
some years ago. Used to get a number or pilots bringing in their
starter for repair. Word of mouth got around. We would :

1. Rebuild the bendix.
2. Put new bearings in.
3. Put new brushes in.
4. Turn and under cut the commutator.
5. Check proper operation of rebuilt unit.
6. Charged them the standard auto starter rebuild rate.

Worked like new when we gave back to pilot for installation.

Check around and tell shop you need their expert to work on your A/C
unit.

Big John

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:32:57 -0500, Wallace Berry
wrote:

In article ,
(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:

Wallace Berry wrote in message
...
Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
starter on a C85?

Thanks,

Wallace

The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
and say that if you do and something happens and they find
non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.

KJSDCAUSA

Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
the "Hemingway" starter.

In article ,
Wallace Berry wrote:

In article ,
(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:

Wallace Berry wrote in message
...
Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
starter on a C85?

Thanks,

Wallace

The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
and say that if you do and something happens and they find
non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.

KJSDCAUSA

Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
the "Hemingway" starter.

I remember years ago my AI stating that "starters are NOT PMA
equipment." This implies that ther is really no such thing as a
"certified starter."

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
I remember years ago my AI stating that "starters are NOT PMA
equipment." This implies that ther is really no such thing as a
"certified starter."

I don't believe it.

Wallace Berry wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:

Wallace Berry wrote in message
...
Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
starter on a C85?

Thanks,

Wallace

The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
and say that if you do and something happens and they find
non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.

KJSDCAUSA

Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
the "Hemingway" starter.

Didn't know for sure it was in an experimental...I know, "rec.aviation
homebuilt." You can use anything you want on an experimental, log it
and be legal.

KJSDCAUSA

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:32:57 -0500, Wallace Berry
wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
the "Hemingway" starter.

I think you'll have trouble with the generator, and very possibly the
starter as well. Since the units are gear-driven, the cases have to have
the appropriate hardware for mounting to the aircraft engine. If you've
got a pull-start C-85, I suspect your chances of finding an automotive
replacement are even lower.

But if you do, pullleeeze let me know. The units on my C-85 aren't of the
best of shape, and I'd love to pick up something automotive that'll work.

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:40:55 -0500, Big John wrote:

]] Owned a shop where we wholesale repaired auto starters and generators
]] some years ago. Used to get a number or pilots bringing in their
]] starter for repair. Word of mouth got around.

When I took my C-85's generator to the local auto electric rebuilder, the
shop guy took a look at it and said, "DON'T tell me what that came off of."
His management didn't allow him to work on aviation units. I told him it
was from an "Off Road Vehicle" and he was satisfied.

One bit of warning, the auto and aviation regulators look very similar, but
apparently don't work the same. The aviation regulator has the three
terminals unevenly spaced, rather than evenly spaced like the automotive
units. When my airplane wouldn't charge, I replaced my regulator with an
automotive one before going through the work to remove the generator. I
eventually had the generator rebuilt, but when I put it on the airplane, I
still didn't get a charge until I restored the original aircraft regulator.

Ron Wanttaja

I remember years ago my AI stating that "starters are NOT PMA
equipment." This implies that ther is really no such thing as a
"certified starter."

Sounds like an Old AI tale. If he meant OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer)
then he is most certainly wrong. Whatever starter the engine maker approved is
the proper starter for that engine and is therefore approved or if you will
certified. It will have a part number assigned by the engine maker no matter
what number the starter manufacturer may have given it. Other starters may
work by they ain't legal.

PMA means Parts Manufacturing Authority and is the approval that after market
makers of parts must get to have approved parts legally capable of being
installed on approved equipment.

John Dupre'


John Dupre'

In article ,
Ron Wanttaja wrote:



I think you'll have trouble with the generator, and very possibly the
starter as well. Since the units are gear-driven, the cases have to have
the appropriate hardware for mounting to the aircraft engine. If you've
got a pull-start C-85, I suspect your chances of finding an automotive
replacement are even lower.

But if you do, pullleeeze let me know. The units on my C-85 aren't of the
best of shape, and I'd love to pick up something automotive that'll work.

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:40:55 -0500, Big John wrote:

]] Owned a shop where we wholesale repaired auto starters and generators
]] some years ago. Used to get a number or pilots bringing in their
]] starter for repair. Word of mouth got around.

When I took my C-85's generator to the local auto electric rebuilder, the
shop guy took a look at it and said, "DON'T tell me what that came off of."
His management didn't allow him to work on aviation units. I told him it
was from an "Off Road Vehicle" and he was satisfied.

One bit of warning, the auto and aviation regulators look very similar, but
apparently don't work the same. The aviation regulator has the three
terminals unevenly spaced, rather than evenly spaced like the automotive
units. When my airplane wouldn't charge, I replaced my regulator with an
automotive one before going through the work to remove the generator. I
eventually had the generator rebuilt, but when I put it on the airplane, I
still didn't get a charge until I restored the original aircraft regulator.

Ron Wanttaja


Thanks for the comments and info. You are almost certainly right about
the slim chance of finding a bolt on automotive replacement for an
aircraft starter. I also doubt that one could easily build a workable
adapter. I'm extremely ignorant of the particulars of aircraft starters,
but I've learned a bit in the last few days. I can see that my original
question was naive to say the least. It's just that aircraft and
automotive (and lawnmower for that matter) starters look similar and are
usually made by the same companies.

For my particular application, I wasn't planning on installing a
generator.The weight of a starter is just enough ballast up front to
take care of C of G concerns (passenger, bags, fuel burn interaction) in
my little plane. I only need the starter to work two or three times at
most during a day. The battery can be charged overnight. My C-85 starts
pretty easy by hand propping if I'm careful not to flood it.

I'll keep on investigating the possibility that there is some automotive
starter(s) out there that is the parent of the starter(s) used on C-85s.
Even if it turns out that there is such a beast, it probably has been
out of production since 1950.

Fly safe,

Wallace
Glasflugel H301 N301BW
Stits SA6b N5423M