A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Battery-Driven Tanis



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 31st 07, 10:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Marco Leon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 319
Default Battery-Driven Tanis

I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in my Warrior but
no electrical source by which to run it. Past newsgroup and online
knowledge (including an email from Tanis) say that at least a couple
of hours are needed to heat the engine in about 20 deg F temps.

An old post from 1999 suggested that a "deep cycle" battery be used in
conjuction with an inverter to be turned on a couple of hours prior to
flight.

Does anyone currently use this setup? If so, any suggestions on the
myriad of battery types and brands? Golf cart batteries are mentioned
quite a bit but they range in price so much that it demands some
research.

Although I live 3 minutes from my tiedown, sitting in my car two hours
before any winter flight kinda takes the wind out of that benefit.

Marco

  #2  
Old January 31st 07, 10:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
BDS[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 149
Default Battery-Driven Tanis


"Marco Leon" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in my Warrior but
no electrical source by which to run it. Past newsgroup and online
knowledge (including an email from Tanis) say that at least a couple
of hours are needed to heat the engine in about 20 deg F temps.

An old post from 1999 suggested that a "deep cycle" battery be used in
conjuction with an inverter to be turned on a couple of hours prior to
flight.


Looks like the smallest Tanis heaters are around 250 watts. Even with a
good inverter you will probably consume around 300 watts, or 25 amps at 12
volts.

Most of the deep cycle batteries are rated based on a 20-hr discharge rate.
That means that a 225 amp-hr battery will only deliver that storage capacity
when it is discharged at the 20-hr rate, or in this case about 12.5 amps -
if you discharge it faster (25 amps) then you will not get rated capacity.
Of course, the battery will not do as well in very cold temperatures either.
In addition and IIRC, deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged to
about 20% of capacity and no more.

Even so, it looks like getting a couple of hours out of a 225 amp-hr battery
shouldn't be a problem. You will just have to haul the thing around and
keep it charged all the time to be able to use it and to keep it healthy. I
wouldn't expect that you'd be able to run more than about 5 or 6 hours
continuous though, and again, that's on a healthy battery.

If your heater has a higher rating than 250 watts, you would have to take
that into account and decrease the numbers above accordingly.

BDS


  #3  
Old January 31st 07, 11:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Morgans
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 146
Default Battery-Driven Tanis


"Marco Leon" wrote

I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in my Warrior but
no electrical source by which to run it. Past newsgroup and online
knowledge (including an email from Tanis) say that at least a couple
of hours are needed to heat the engine in about 20 deg F temps.

An old post from 1999 suggested that a "deep cycle" battery be used in
conjuction with an inverter to be turned on a couple of hours prior to
flight.

Does anyone currently use this setup? If so, any suggestions on the
myriad of battery types and brands?


More information is needed, as to the current draw of the units when plugged
into a standard outlet. Buy or borrow an AC amp meter, and report back.
Also, do you have the cabin heater, or just the engine heater?

I have used power inverters for quite a few different things. They are good
at some uses, and very poor at others. Part of the design that causes some
problems is the wave form in most consumer inverters. If it is called a
modified sine wave converter, it is basically a square wave, with on and off
pulses, and not much in-between, unlike a sine wave.

They are very poor at running inductive motors, like air conditioners and
refrigerators. Sometimes it is necessary to run something like a light bulb
along with the refrigerator, to trigger the unit into producing the wave
form.

As I recall, most inverters say right on them that they are not to be used
for powering resistance heaters. They will do it, but it will strain the
power switching transistors. That seems to be the weak link. Also,
chargers for power tools and such that are constant current, variable
voltage units should not be used on inverters. I burned out a Dewalt
charger on an inverter, while trying to do what was not recommended.

Inverters usually have a rated wattage, such as 500 watts constant, 1000
watts peak. The peak is a joke. It may do that for a millisecond, but any
more will result in a very low output voltage, and trigger a reset
condition, which usually must be done manually. Not a good thing, if you
are not there.

I would think that if you do go this route, you would be advised to get one
at least twice as big, or more. If you say the heater unit draws 500 watts,
get a minimum of a 1000 watt, but a 1500 watt or 2000 watt would be better.

Post some more specifics, if you will. My feeling is that it will be
doable, but not cheap. Triggering a small electric start generator may be a
better option.
--
Jim in NC




  #4  
Old February 1st 07, 12:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Macklin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,070
Default Battery-Driven Tanis

Go to a store and buy a portable gasoline powered generator.
Get insulating blankets for the cowl, otherwise all the heat
will escape.
If you can setup some sort of remote starting for the
generator, you can get started warming it up or just start
the generator and go get a cup of coffee.


You don't want to be hauling hundreds of pounds of acid
filled batteries around.

Or run a powerline, they do that all the time at
construction sites.



"BDS" wrote in message
et...
|
| "Marco Leon" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in
my Warrior but
| no electrical source by which to run it. Past newsgroup
and online
| knowledge (including an email from Tanis) say that at
least a couple
| of hours are needed to heat the engine in about 20 deg F
temps.
|
| An old post from 1999 suggested that a "deep cycle"
battery be used in
| conjuction with an inverter to be turned on a couple of
hours prior to
| flight.
|
| Looks like the smallest Tanis heaters are around 250
watts. Even with a
| good inverter you will probably consume around 300 watts,
or 25 amps at 12
| volts.
|
| Most of the deep cycle batteries are rated based on a
20-hr discharge rate.
| That means that a 225 amp-hr battery will only deliver
that storage capacity
| when it is discharged at the 20-hr rate, or in this case
about 12.5 amps -
| if you discharge it faster (25 amps) then you will not get
rated capacity.
| Of course, the battery will not do as well in very cold
temperatures either.
| In addition and IIRC, deep cycle batteries are designed to
be discharged to
| about 20% of capacity and no more.
|
| Even so, it looks like getting a couple of hours out of a
225 amp-hr battery
| shouldn't be a problem. You will just have to haul the
thing around and
| keep it charged all the time to be able to use it and to
keep it healthy. I
| wouldn't expect that you'd be able to run more than about
5 or 6 hours
| continuous though, and again, that's on a healthy battery.
|
| If your heater has a higher rating than 250 watts, you
would have to take
| that into account and decrease the numbers above
accordingly.
|
| BDS
|
|


  #5  
Old February 1st 07, 12:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jay Honeck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,573
Default Battery-Driven Tanis

Although I live 3 minutes from my tiedown, sitting in my car two hours
before any winter flight kinda takes the wind out of that benefit.


Sounds like a perfect application for one of those annoying little
Honda generators that we always seem to get stuck next to when
camping...?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

  #6  
Old February 1st 07, 01:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 195
Default Battery-Driven Tanis

Marco Leon wrote:
I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in my Warrior but
no electrical source by which to run it.


You may have already read this thread, but if not, you might find
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e8d8cc0078d41b
and in particular
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...46b39f6df7c857
where I went through the math on sizing the battery.

As to what kind of battery: If I wanted to do this and money was no
object, I'd go with a gel-cell/absorbed-glass-mat battery, plus a decent
charger to go with it. The gel-cell battery is more expensive, but has
the redeeming feature that if you tip it over, acid doesn't go everywhere.
A "decent" charger probably means a microprocessor-controlled one with a
setting for gel-cell batteries - they should be charged a little
differently than a flooded battery. If you overcharge a gel-cell with a
cheap charger, you can't (usually) add water to the battery to fix it.

If I wanted to do it on the cheap, I'd probably go to Wal-Mart and buy
their big yellow "deep cycle" flooded lead-acid battery and whatever
cheap 6 or 10 amp charger they sell. You have to be more careful when
handling a flooded battery, and the cheap charger means that you have to
remember to shut off the charger yourself. But, if you do accidentally
overcharge the battery, you can add distilled water to the battery to
make up for what you boiled off.

Whatever you do, DON'T leave out the fuse between the battery and the
inverter. Batteries can deliver a whole lot of energy in a hurry and
that's probably something you don't want happening around your airplane.

Matt Roberds

  #7  
Old February 1st 07, 03:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dave[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 186
Default Battery-Driven Tanis

It seems to me that a low-voltage pad heater would fill the bill. The
following link is for a company that makes pad heaters much like the
Tanis, but designed to operate on 12 Volts:

http://www.padheaters.com/sizing.html

A resistance heating element doesn't care if it is run on AC or DC, so
a battery would do the job. You could charge the battery with a solar
panel - and rig up some sort of means of turning the heat on remotely
if you want to get fancy. I have heard of people using modified cell
phones for such things. A pager modified to provide a contact closure
would work as well. You'd need to do some experimentation to work out
pad wattage, battery capacity and solar panel size - but I think it is
a practical solution.

David Johnson




  #8  
Old February 1st 07, 05:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 195
Default Battery-Driven Tanis

Dave wrote:
It seems to me that a low-voltage pad heater would fill the bill. The
following link is for a company that makes pad heaters much like the
Tanis, but designed to operate on 12 Volts:


Are you suggesting installing the 12 V heater along with the Tanis
heater, or instead of the Tanis heater? If the 12 V heater replaces
the Tanis heater, you then need to carry a 120 V to 12 V transformer
or power supply if you want to preheat your engine at a remote location.
Assuming you have a 250 W heater, browsing Digi-Key says that a 250 W
transformer weighs about 6 lb and costs about US$75, while a 250 W
power supply weighs about 3 lb and costs about US$250.

Matt Roberds

  #9  
Old February 1st 07, 02:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
BDS[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 149
Default Battery-Driven Tanis


"Dave" wrote

You could charge the battery with a solar
panel


That might not work so well in an application like this. If he has the 250
watt heater and runs it for 3 hours then he has removed 750 watt-hours of
energy from the battery (plus change).

A typical solar panel charger is meant for trickle charging and they only
put out something like 10 watts or less, although I've seen some up around
20 watts. That means that it will take 75 hours of charging time at 10
watts to replace that 750 watt-hours, and that's at 100% efficiency which,
as well all know, doesn't exist.

Most of these deep cycle cells are looking for a charge at around 20 amps
for 10 hours or so to bring them up to full charge, and then a float charge
to hold the terminal voltage around 13.8 volts.

Either a generator or a propane-fired pre-heater is the way to go here.

BDS


  #10  
Old February 1st 07, 05:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Marco Leon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 319
Default Battery-Driven Tanis

On Jan 31, 5:43 pm, "Morgans" wrote:

More information is needed, as to the current draw of the units when plugged
into a standard outlet. Buy or borrow an AC amp meter, and report back.
Also, do you have the cabin heater, or just the engine heater?


Just the engine heater. The standard Tanis for the 320 engines are 250
watts and drawing about 2-3 amps according to Tanis.


As I recall, most inverters say right on them that they are not to be used
for powering resistance heaters. They will do it, but it will strain the
power switching transistors. That seems to be the weak link. Also,
chargers for power tools and such that are constant current, variable
voltage units should not be used on inverters. I burned out a Dewalt
charger on an inverter, while trying to do what was not recommended.

Inverters usually have a rated wattage, such as 500 watts constant, 1000
watts peak. The peak is a joke. It may do that for a millisecond, but any
more will result in a very low output voltage, and trigger a reset
condition, which usually must be done manually. Not a good thing, if you
are not there.


The inverter I have can run continuously at 400 Watts with a peak of
800W. I learned my lesson about the "peak" rating when I was a
teenager buying my first boom-box...

I would think that if you do go this route, you would be advised to get one
at least twice as big, or more. If you say the heater unit draws 500 watts,
get a minimum of a 1000 watt, but a 1500 watt or 2000 watt would be better.


That's why I bought the 400W inverter. While not twice the rating,
hopefully it will be enough for a 250W heater.

Post some more specifics, if you will. My feeling is that it will be
doable, but not cheap. Triggering a small electric start generator may be a
better option.


I think the generator would be the ideal situation but I'm trying to
avoid spending ~$500 on a good generator. I did some research on
generators and there are some Chinese non-name brands out there but
the feedback has not been good. Duropower comes to mind but at less
than 1/2 the price of the Honda, I hesitate due to the "you get what
you pay for" rule.

But if there's any good feedback from fellow pilots on the Duropower
generators, I'll go and get one today.



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
battery self-destruct [email protected] Owning 13 June 13th 06 11:04 PM
Battery Question [email protected] Soaring 19 September 15th 05 01:38 AM
14 Volt Gel Cell? Joe Allbritten Soaring 32 May 11th 04 01:37 AM
Icom A5 Battery Tester ?? Harry Gordon Piloting 5 January 10th 04 02:29 PM
Becker AR 4201 or Microair 760 Transceiver Steve B Soaring 23 September 15th 03 06:32 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.