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Holding Pattern Entries



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 9th 03, 10:40 PM
Snowbird
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Ryan Ferguson wrote in message ...
It should be a method you can use without thinking....focus
intently on whether to turn RIGHT or LEFT


Um, Ryan, dear chap:

Can you kindly explain how "focusing intently on whether
to turn RIGHT or LEFT" differs substantively from "thinking"????

Cheers,
Sydney
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  #12  
Old July 9th 03, 11:04 PM
Ryan Ferguson
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Snowbird wrote:

Well, I dunno Dan. What floats your boat, but it seems to me
that if I can visualize the holding pattern well enough to
tell which side of the inbound course I'll be on and which direction
is the shortest initial turn to the outbound course, I can visualize
the holding pattern well enough to determine which entry I need to
make (no mneumonic tricks, Sporty's gadgets, or fingers on the HI,
and with less thinking. Maybe it's just me.


I'm on both sides of the fence here, because I understand Dan's methodology and reasoning, but I
agree with you that just flying the 'recommended' hold entry is easy in the first place. I don't use
any finger kung-fu or silicon memory implants to fly hold entries, I just do 'em. You and I are
probably similar in that we can just 'see' it.

But let's rehash the 'simple' way once more with an even more rudimentary breakdown. Maybe you'll
find some utility in it. I have.

Think basic here. Somewhere there's a VOR. You have to hold west of it, right turns. Fly to it
from wherever you are. Once you're over the station, fly the outbound heading (west.) You have one
minute to figure out which way to turn to stay in protected airspace. Do a 180 in that direction and
fly right back to the VOR. You're established. No thinking. (Unless you really think deciding
whether to turn left or right is 'thinking!')

So at the end of the day it's a three-step process:

1. Fly to the station or fix.
2. Turn to the outbound heading.
3. Turn inbound back to the station or fix.

That's it. You're established.

-Ryan
CFI-ASE-AME, CFI-RH, CP-ASMEL-IA, CP-RH, AGI

  #13  
Old July 9th 03, 11:19 PM
Ryan Ferguson
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Dan Luke wrote:

Not necessarily. Why do you think holds are depicted for some course
reversals? Why not a PT every time?


Usually because the approach has to be designed that way, whether it's because
of obstructions, airspace, the missed approach procedure, or other issues. I
can assure you that when the weather's low and everyone's trying to get in, no
one will appreciate your extra lap if it wasn't necessary.


And as for applied thinking, may I respectfully suggest that you might do
little more of it on this subject. Draw a series of entries with the
orthodox method and then overlay them with drawings of the method I suggest.
I think you'll see there's not enough difference to matter.


Most of the time, you're right. There's very little perceivable difference
between the brain-mush method and the actual prescribed hold entries. The
difference occurs when:

1) You need to hold, winds are blowing perpendicular to the inbound and outbound
course, and you don't want to blown to the wrong side of the hold. (Yes, I
realize that you're actually protected well into what we think of as
'unprotected' airspace, but that's simply sloppy flying - and we GA pilots have
a cushion because our airplanes are slow.)

2) You need to fly a course reversal (hold-in-lieu) and stabilize the approach
early (when it ideally should be stabilized.) A 172 is easy to stabilize on
damn near any segment of any approach. A Twin Comanche is not.

3) When taking a flight test.

4) When instructing students who need to pass flight tests.

5) To satisfactorily pass an ATP flight test.

6) In many cases, to 'pass' a job interview, for the career-minded among us.

Regardless of the way you decide to fly, Dan, you just can't throw this out!

Best regards,

-Ryan
CFI-ASE-AME, CFI-RH, CP-ASMEL-IA, CP-RH, AGI

  #14  
Old July 10th 03, 05:21 AM
Sydney Hoeltzli
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Ryan Ferguson wrote:

"Focusing intently" was meant to be a humorous slant on that portion of the procedure, because
figuring out whether to turn left or right shouldn't tax the brainpower of even the most
sluggardly of instrument pilots.


Well, I guess I kinda feel that being situationally aware of where
the holding pattern is and from which direction one is approaching
shouldn't tax the brainpower, and once one knows that the correct
P/T/D entry is pretty obvious. If you fly across the holding pattern
(or the same side) to get to the fix, it's a direct entry. If
crossing the fix and proceding on course would have you flying
across the holding pattern, it's teardrop. If crossing the fix
would have you flying away from the holding pattern, it's parallel.
I don't worry about if I'm off by 10 degrees from what "looks right".

So I don't grasp where the supposed superior simplicity of a method
which requires one to be situationally aware enough to figure
out where the holding pattern is, what is the shortest direction
to turn to the outbound heading, and from there what is the
proper direction to turn towards the inbound leg. It honestly seems
to me that you're using as many or more brain cycles.

Maybe I'm just wierd, though.

Cheers,
Sydney

  #15  
Old July 10th 03, 05:43 PM
PaulaJay1
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In article , Ryan Ferguson
writes:

Well, I guess I kinda feel that being situationally aware of where
the holding pattern is and from which direction one is approaching
shouldn't tax the brainpower, and once one knows that the correct
P/T/D entry is pretty obvious.


You'll get no disagreement from me! If that works for you, use it. As I've
already mentioned in
this thread, I believe learning the standard entries sans the various memory
aids and finger tricks
tends to lead toward proper visualization of the hold, your position, and how
to enter it with very
little thinking. For those who can't do that easily, the 'just turn
outbound' method is an
alternative which THEY might find simpler.


Lots of training for holds but, in 7 years, I've never had one. Sure, I do
them for practice but have never been given one by ATC. However, if the
training help spacial awareness, it's all for the good.

Chuck
  #16  
Old July 10th 03, 05:56 PM
Ryan Ferguson
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I've had 3 assigned in 1,200 hours.

PaulaJay1 wrote:

In article , Ryan Ferguson
writes:

Well, I guess I kinda feel that being situationally aware of where
the holding pattern is and from which direction one is approaching
shouldn't tax the brainpower, and once one knows that the correct
P/T/D entry is pretty obvious.


You'll get no disagreement from me! If that works for you, use it. As I've
already mentioned in
this thread, I believe learning the standard entries sans the various memory
aids and finger tricks
tends to lead toward proper visualization of the hold, your position, and how
to enter it with very
little thinking. For those who can't do that easily, the 'just turn
outbound' method is an
alternative which THEY might find simpler.


Lots of training for holds but, in 7 years, I've never had one. Sure, I do
them for practice but have never been given one by ATC. However, if the
training help spacial awareness, it's all for the good.

Chuck


  #17  
Old July 10th 03, 11:04 PM
Ray Andraka
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I've had about a half dozen in 800 hours. Seems they are much more likely when the
weather is yucky. Only two were in VMC, one for traffic control going into Atlantic
City for one of the airshows, and one for traffic outside of NYC on V16. The others
were all in IMC.

Ryan Ferguson wrote:

I've had 3 assigned in 1,200 hours.

PaulaJay1 wrote:

In article , Ryan Ferguson
writes:

Well, I guess I kinda feel that being situationally aware of where
the holding pattern is and from which direction one is approaching
shouldn't tax the brainpower, and once one knows that the correct
P/T/D entry is pretty obvious.

You'll get no disagreement from me! If that works for you, use it. As I've
already mentioned in
this thread, I believe learning the standard entries sans the various memory
aids and finger tricks
tends to lead toward proper visualization of the hold, your position, and how
to enter it with very
little thinking. For those who can't do that easily, the 'just turn
outbound' method is an
alternative which THEY might find simpler.


Lots of training for holds but, in 7 years, I've never had one. Sure, I do
them for practice but have never been given one by ATC. However, if the
training help spacial awareness, it's all for the good.

Chuck


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759


  #18  
Old July 11th 03, 05:18 AM
Sydney Hoeltzli
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PaulaJay1 wrote:

Lots of training for holds but, in 7 years, I've never had one. Sure, I do
them for practice but have never been given one by ATC. However, if the
training help spacial awareness, it's all for the good.


We've had 3 IIRC, 2 out in the boonies for the same small airport.
Go figgur. The 2nd time we were able to cancel IFR and go in to
our true destination visually.

Equally common (2) has been "just circle a few times, present
position". Frankly I hate this instruction; I can create a waypoint
anywhere I want with my GPS or hold at any DME distance off a VOR,
and I'd much prefer a hold to constant circling.

Cheers,
Sydney

 




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