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Third Military-Civil MAC Jan. 18, 2005



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 8th 05, 04:05 PM
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Third Military-Civil MAC Jan. 18, 2005


The latest Military-Civil MAC occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005.
The military pilots stated the Air Tractor impacted the right side of
their aircraft.


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.4.7&idno=14
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91—GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B—Flight Rules
General
§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging
at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so),
the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.


------------------------------------------------------------
First Military-Civil MAC:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X33340&key=1
The NTSB erroneously found the glider pilot to be at fault despite
FAA regulations granting him the right-of-way over powered
aircraft.


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.4.7&idno=14
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91—GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B—Flight Rules
General
§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(d)(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered
parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.


------------------------------------------------------------

Second Military-Civil MAC:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...1FA028A&rpt=fi
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
cause(s) of this accident as follows.

the failure of the F-16 flight lead pilot and F-16 accident pilot
to maintain an adequate visual lookout while maneuvering.

Factors contributing to the accident we

the F-16 flight lead pilots decision to discontinue radar traffic
advisory service,

the F-16 flight lead pilots failure to identify a position error
in his aircrafts navigational system,

the F-16 pilots subsequent inadvertent [sic] entry into class C
airspace without establishing and maintaining required
communications with air traffic control (ATC);

and ATCs lack of awareness that there was more than one F-16
aircraft in the formation flight, which reduced the ATC
controllers ability to detect and resolve the conflict that
resulted in the collision.

The NTSB apparently failed to notice, that the F-16's navigation
system error did not affect Parker's deliberate decision to descend
into Class B airspace without the required ATC clearance.


------------------------------------------------------------
Third Military-Civil MAC:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...26X00109&key=2
NTSB Identification: CHI05FA055B
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005 in Hollister, OK
Aircraft: Air Tractor AT-502B, registration: N8526M
Injuries: 1 Fatal, 1 Minor, 1 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
report has been completed.

On [Tuesday] January 18, 2005, approximately 1128 central standard
time, an Air Tractor AT-502B single-engine agricultural airplane,
N8526M, and a Cessna T-37B, a twin-turbojet military trainer, tail
number 66008003, operating under the call sign Cider 21, were
destroyed following a midair collision during cruise flight near
Hollister, Oklahoma. The AT-502B was registered to a private
individual and operated by a commercial pilot. The T-37B was
registered to and operated by the United States Air Force (USAF). The
commercial pilot in the AT-502B was fatally injured. The USAF flight
instructor pilot was not injured and the USAF student pilot sustained
minor injuries. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and a
flight plan was not filed for the AT-502B, who was operating under 14
Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 for the ferry flight. An
instrument rules flight plan was filed for the T-37B, who was
operating under Air Force Instructions (AFI) 11-202, Volume III. The
cross-country flight for the AT-502B flight originated from the Olney
Municipal Airport, near Olney, Texas, approximately 1100, and was
destined for Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate fuel stop. The
local flight for the T-37B originated from the Sheppard Air Force Base
(SPS), near Wichita Falls, Texas, approximately 1022.

According to company personnel from an Air Tractor dealership in
Arkansas, the pilot was hired to ferry the recently purchased AT-502B
to the new owner in Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate
refueling stop in Hutchinson, Kansas. Company personnel at the Air
Tractor factory located in Olney, Texas, reported that the AT-502B was
equipped with basic visual flight rules (VFR) instruments and was not
equipped with any radios or a transponder. Company personnel added
that the pilot had a hand held aircraft radio transmitter, a hand held
Garmin 295 GPS unit, and various maps prior to departure.

During an interview with the NTSB investigator-in-charge (IIC), the
USAF flight instructor and student pilot reported that they were on a
routine mission training flight (C2803). After a non-eventful
departure from SPS, they performed two normal overhead approaches to
SPS before being cleared into the Military Operations Area (MOA). Once
in the MOA, the training flight completed one loop, a barrel roll, two

power on stalls, one spin recovery, two spin prevents, traffic pattern
stalls, and slow flight. After completing the series of high altitude
maneuvers, the training flight received radar vectors to the RANCH
intersection and then to the Frederick Municipal Airport (FDR), near
Frederick, Oklahoma, which is commonly referred to by the USAF as
"Hacker." As the flight descended to an altitude of 6,000 feet, the
instructor noted the bottom of the overcast cloud ceiling to be
between 6,000 and 6,500 feet mean sea level (msl).

After arriving at Hacker, the training flight performed a straight in
no flap landing, and requested left closed traffic. After completing a
normal overhead approach and a single-engine landing, the flight
proceeded to depart Hacker's airspace to the east and climbed to 5,500
feet msl.

During this time, the USAF student pilot performed the en route
portion of his checklist and contacted USAF Radar Approach Control
(Rapcon) to notify them they were en route back to Sheppard Air Force
Base and requested the "home plate" arrival.

Rapcon advised the flight that they had radar contact, and to descend
to 5,000 feet msl on a heading of 100 degrees.

After leveling off at 5,000 feet msl at an indicated airspeed of 200
knots, the flight instructor took control of the T-37B. The instructor
stated that he briefly scanned at the student pilot's altimeter on the
left side of the instrument panel (a standard practice for T-37 flight
instructors). As he was turning his head back to the right, he noticed
a "high visibility yellow airplane" out of the right corner of his
eye. The student pilot stated that as the flight instructor took
control of the aircraft, he scanned outside the airplane to the left,
and started to look back to the right when he saw the yellow Air
Tractor heading towards the right side of the T-37B.

Subsequently, the instructor and student pilot recalled feeling a
spinning sensation, and rolling inverted. Both the instructor and
student pilot initiated emergency egress procedures and ejected from
the aircraft.

The T-37B and AT-502B impacted farm fields about 3.5 miles east of
Hollister, Oklahoma. Both aircraft were partially consumed by a post
impact fire.

A witness located north of the accident site reported in a written
statement that he observed an aircraft descending rapidly in a nose
down attitude and on fire prior to losing sight of it behind a tree
line. Subsequently, the witness observed a second aircraft spinning in
a nose down attitude, and it was missing a wing. The witness added
that a plume of smoke was originating from the airplane but he didn't
see any flames. As the airplane continued to descend, he noticed two
parachutes on each side of the airplane and he decided to proceed to
the area to see if he could assist the pilots.
-------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.kfdx.com/news/default.asp...ownews&id=7511

FAA STATES CROP DUSTER PILOT DIDN`T VIOLATE AIRSPACE
Friday, January 21, 2005


A Federal Aviation Administration official says the pilot of a crop
duster violated no rules before his plane and an Air Force training
jet collided in mid-air in Southwestern Oklahoma.

Pilot Dierk Nash of Wheatley, Arkansas died in the collision and crash
Tuesday in a military operating area over Tillman County, Oklahoma.
Nash was flying the plane from Texas to a customer in South Dakota and
the jet flown by Captain Christopher Otis and Second Lieutenant
Roderick James was returning to Sheppard Air Force Base. Otis and
James parachuted safely from the jet before it crashed. FAA spokesman
John Clabes says Nash had a clean flight record and was not in
violation of any rule as far as investigators can tell. The FAA is
assisting the National Transportation Safety Board`s investigation of
the crash. Sheppard Air Force Base is conducting its own investigation
in cooperation with the FAA and the NTSB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_05a.../189070-1.html
....With Details From Surviving Pilots

By Mary Grady
Newswriter, Editor

The T-37 pilots had completed a training session and were on their
way back to Sheppard Air Force Base, in Texas. They contacted USAF
Radar Approach Control and were told they had radar contact. They
descended to 5,000 feet and leveled off at 200 knots, the NTSB said.
After leveling off from the descent, the T-37 instructor took control
and briefly scanned the student's altimeter on the left side of the
panel, according to standard practice. As he was turning back to the
right, he told the NTSB he saw a "high visibility yellow airplane."
The student pilot said that as the instructor took control, he scanned
outside the airplane to the left, and started to look back to the
right when he saw the yellow Air Tractor heading toward the right side
of the T-37. The Air Force pilots said they felt a spinning motion and
rolled inverted, and then ejected from the airplane. If the results of
the investigation determine that no rules or procedures were broken in
the process of a man's death and the destruction of two aircraft,
perhaps it will be determined there is need to change the rules or
procedures. We'll let you know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_05a.../189069-1.html

NTSB Reports On Fatal Military/Civilian Midair...

By Mary Grady
Newswriter, Editor

In Search Of Causal Factors
The pilots of an Air Force training jet saw the crop-duster seconds
before the two airplanes collided 5,000 feet above rural Oklahoma
about 11 a.m. on Jan. 18, the NTSB said in its preliminary report,
posted Thursday. The two pilots in the Cessna T-37B jet ejected
safely. The pilot of the Air Tractor AT-502B, Dierk Nash, 39, of
Arkansas, was killed. FAA spokesman John Clabes told the local KFDX
News that Nash had a clean flight record and was not in violation of
any rule as far as investigators can tell.

Nash was flying VFR, ferrying the Air Tractor from the plant in Olney,
Texas, to its new owner in South Dakota. He had been flying about a
half hour. The crop-duster was not equipped with a radio or
transponder, but Nash had a handheld radio and a GPS unit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


http://avweb.com/newswire/11_03b/briefs/189003-1.html
January 20, 2005

Military/Civilian Midair Probed

By Russ Niles
Newswriter, Editor

The vast majority of midair collisions are in or near the pattern so
investigators have their work cut out for them in the tragic meeting
of an Air Tractor crop-duster and an Air Force T-37 5,000 feet above
the wide-open spaces of Oklahoma on Tuesday morning. The Air Force
pilots, instructor Capt. Christopher S. Otis and student 2nd Lt.
Roderick V. James, bailed out safely but the Air Tractor pilot, Derek
Nach, died.

Hunting guide Jerry Mayfield reached the Tweet pilots first and said
one of them told him he didn't see the collision coming. There have
been similar events, before. Nach was ferrying the brand-new Air
Tractor from the plant in Olney, Texas, to its new owner in South
Dakota. Investigators have declined detailed comment or speculation on
the cause of the collision. The crash occurred near Hollister, Okla.,
in an area commonly used by the air training wings based at Sheppard
AFB near Wichita Falls, Texas. AVweb reported another
military/civilian collision in November 2004. The NTSB's current
synopsis and probable cause (a PDF file) are available online. After
that collision, the F-16 pilot ejected safely and walked to a local
house to use the phone.

The Cessna pilot was killed.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ads
  #2  
Old February 8th 05, 06:18 PM
Mike Rapoport
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It is always interesting how people talk about a slow airplane "crashing
into" a fast airplane. Obviously it isn't possible and a more reasonable
explanation is that the faster airplane flew right into the path of slower
airplane.

Mike
MU-2


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

The latest Military-Civil MAC occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005.
The military pilots stated the Air Tractor impacted the right side of
their aircraft.


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.4.7&idno=14
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B-Flight Rules
General
§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging
at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so),
the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.


------------------------------------------------------------
First Military-Civil MAC:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X33340&key=1
The NTSB erroneously found the glider pilot to be at fault despite
FAA regulations granting him the right-of-way over powered
aircraft.


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.4.7&idno=14
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart B-Flight Rules
General
§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(d)(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered
parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.


------------------------------------------------------------

Second Military-Civil MAC:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...1FA028A&rpt=fi
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
cause(s) of this accident as follows.

the failure of the F-16 flight lead pilot and F-16 accident pilot
to maintain an adequate visual lookout while maneuvering.

Factors contributing to the accident we

the F-16 flight lead pilots decision to discontinue radar traffic
advisory service,

the F-16 flight lead pilots failure to identify a position error
in his aircrafts navigational system,

the F-16 pilots subsequent inadvertent [sic] entry into class C
airspace without establishing and maintaining required
communications with air traffic control (ATC);

and ATCs lack of awareness that there was more than one F-16
aircraft in the formation flight, which reduced the ATC
controllers ability to detect and resolve the conflict that
resulted in the collision.

The NTSB apparently failed to notice, that the F-16's navigation
system error did not affect Parker's deliberate decision to descend
into Class B airspace without the required ATC clearance.


------------------------------------------------------------
Third Military-Civil MAC:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...26X00109&key=2
NTSB Identification: CHI05FA055B
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005 in Hollister, OK
Aircraft: Air Tractor AT-502B, registration: N8526M
Injuries: 1 Fatal, 1 Minor, 1 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
report has been completed.

On [Tuesday] January 18, 2005, approximately 1128 central standard
time, an Air Tractor AT-502B single-engine agricultural airplane,
N8526M, and a Cessna T-37B, a twin-turbojet military trainer, tail
number 66008003, operating under the call sign Cider 21, were
destroyed following a midair collision during cruise flight near
Hollister, Oklahoma. The AT-502B was registered to a private
individual and operated by a commercial pilot. The T-37B was
registered to and operated by the United States Air Force (USAF). The
commercial pilot in the AT-502B was fatally injured. The USAF flight
instructor pilot was not injured and the USAF student pilot sustained
minor injuries. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and a
flight plan was not filed for the AT-502B, who was operating under 14
Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 for the ferry flight. An
instrument rules flight plan was filed for the T-37B, who was
operating under Air Force Instructions (AFI) 11-202, Volume III. The
cross-country flight for the AT-502B flight originated from the Olney
Municipal Airport, near Olney, Texas, approximately 1100, and was
destined for Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate fuel stop. The
local flight for the T-37B originated from the Sheppard Air Force Base
(SPS), near Wichita Falls, Texas, approximately 1022.

According to company personnel from an Air Tractor dealership in
Arkansas, the pilot was hired to ferry the recently purchased AT-502B
to the new owner in Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate
refueling stop in Hutchinson, Kansas. Company personnel at the Air
Tractor factory located in Olney, Texas, reported that the AT-502B was
equipped with basic visual flight rules (VFR) instruments and was not
equipped with any radios or a transponder. Company personnel added
that the pilot had a hand held aircraft radio transmitter, a hand held
Garmin 295 GPS unit, and various maps prior to departure.

During an interview with the NTSB investigator-in-charge (IIC), the
USAF flight instructor and student pilot reported that they were on a
routine mission training flight (C2803). After a non-eventful
departure from SPS, they performed two normal overhead approaches to
SPS before being cleared into the Military Operations Area (MOA). Once
in the MOA, the training flight completed one loop, a barrel roll, two

power on stalls, one spin recovery, two spin prevents, traffic pattern
stalls, and slow flight. After completing the series of high altitude
maneuvers, the training flight received radar vectors to the RANCH
intersection and then to the Frederick Municipal Airport (FDR), near
Frederick, Oklahoma, which is commonly referred to by the USAF as
"Hacker." As the flight descended to an altitude of 6,000 feet, the
instructor noted the bottom of the overcast cloud ceiling to be
between 6,000 and 6,500 feet mean sea level (msl).

After arriving at Hacker, the training flight performed a straight in
no flap landing, and requested left closed traffic. After completing a
normal overhead approach and a single-engine landing, the flight
proceeded to depart Hacker's airspace to the east and climbed to 5,500
feet msl.

During this time, the USAF student pilot performed the en route
portion of his checklist and contacted USAF Radar Approach Control
(Rapcon) to notify them they were en route back to Sheppard Air Force
Base and requested the "home plate" arrival.

Rapcon advised the flight that they had radar contact, and to descend
to 5,000 feet msl on a heading of 100 degrees.

After leveling off at 5,000 feet msl at an indicated airspeed of 200
knots, the flight instructor took control of the T-37B. The instructor
stated that he briefly scanned at the student pilot's altimeter on the
left side of the instrument panel (a standard practice for T-37 flight
instructors). As he was turning his head back to the right, he noticed
a "high visibility yellow airplane" out of the right corner of his
eye. The student pilot stated that as the flight instructor took
control of the aircraft, he scanned outside the airplane to the left,
and started to look back to the right when he saw the yellow Air
Tractor heading towards the right side of the T-37B.

Subsequently, the instructor and student pilot recalled feeling a
spinning sensation, and rolling inverted. Both the instructor and
student pilot initiated emergency egress procedures and ejected from
the aircraft.

The T-37B and AT-502B impacted farm fields about 3.5 miles east of
Hollister, Oklahoma. Both aircraft were partially consumed by a post
impact fire.

A witness located north of the accident site reported in a written
statement that he observed an aircraft descending rapidly in a nose
down attitude and on fire prior to losing sight of it behind a tree
line. Subsequently, the witness observed a second aircraft spinning in
a nose down attitude, and it was missing a wing. The witness added
that a plume of smoke was originating from the airplane but he didn't
see any flames. As the airplane continued to descend, he noticed two
parachutes on each side of the airplane and he decided to proceed to
the area to see if he could assist the pilots.
-------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.kfdx.com/news/default.asp...ownews&id=7511

FAA STATES CROP DUSTER PILOT DIDN`T VIOLATE AIRSPACE
Friday, January 21, 2005


A Federal Aviation Administration official says the pilot of a crop
duster violated no rules before his plane and an Air Force training
jet collided in mid-air in Southwestern Oklahoma.

Pilot Dierk Nash of Wheatley, Arkansas died in the collision and crash
Tuesday in a military operating area over Tillman County, Oklahoma.
Nash was flying the plane from Texas to a customer in South Dakota and
the jet flown by Captain Christopher Otis and Second Lieutenant
Roderick James was returning to Sheppard Air Force Base. Otis and
James parachuted safely from the jet before it crashed. FAA spokesman
John Clabes says Nash had a clean flight record and was not in
violation of any rule as far as investigators can tell. The FAA is
assisting the National Transportation Safety Board`s investigation of
the crash. Sheppard Air Force Base is conducting its own investigation
in cooperation with the FAA and the NTSB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_05a.../189070-1.html
...With Details From Surviving Pilots

By Mary Grady
Newswriter, Editor

The T-37 pilots had completed a training session and were on their
way back to Sheppard Air Force Base, in Texas. They contacted USAF
Radar Approach Control and were told they had radar contact. They
descended to 5,000 feet and leveled off at 200 knots, the NTSB said.
After leveling off from the descent, the T-37 instructor took control
and briefly scanned the student's altimeter on the left side of the
panel, according to standard practice. As he was turning back to the
right, he told the NTSB he saw a "high visibility yellow airplane."
The student pilot said that as the instructor took control, he scanned
outside the airplane to the left, and started to look back to the
right when he saw the yellow Air Tractor heading toward the right side
of the T-37. The Air Force pilots said they felt a spinning motion and
rolled inverted, and then ejected from the airplane. If the results of
the investigation determine that no rules or procedures were broken in
the process of a man's death and the destruction of two aircraft,
perhaps it will be determined there is need to change the rules or
procedures. We'll let you know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_05a.../189069-1.html

NTSB Reports On Fatal Military/Civilian Midair...

By Mary Grady
Newswriter, Editor

In Search Of Causal Factors
The pilots of an Air Force training jet saw the crop-duster seconds
before the two airplanes collided 5,000 feet above rural Oklahoma
about 11 a.m. on Jan. 18, the NTSB said in its preliminary report,
posted Thursday. The two pilots in the Cessna T-37B jet ejected
safely. The pilot of the Air Tractor AT-502B, Dierk Nash, 39, of
Arkansas, was killed. FAA spokesman John Clabes told the local KFDX
News that Nash had a clean flight record and was not in violation of
any rule as far as investigators can tell.

Nash was flying VFR, ferrying the Air Tractor from the plant in Olney,
Texas, to its new owner in South Dakota. He had been flying about a
half hour. The crop-duster was not equipped with a radio or
transponder, but Nash had a handheld radio and a GPS unit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


http://avweb.com/newswire/11_03b/briefs/189003-1.html
January 20, 2005

Military/Civilian Midair Probed

By Russ Niles
Newswriter, Editor

The vast majority of midair collisions are in or near the pattern so
investigators have their work cut out for them in the tragic meeting
of an Air Tractor crop-duster and an Air Force T-37 5,000 feet above
the wide-open spaces of Oklahoma on Tuesday morning. The Air Force
pilots, instructor Capt. Christopher S. Otis and student 2nd Lt.
Roderick V. James, bailed out safely but the Air Tractor pilot, Derek
Nach, died.

Hunting guide Jerry Mayfield reached the Tweet pilots first and said
one of them told him he didn't see the collision coming. There have
been similar events, before. Nach was ferrying the brand-new Air
Tractor from the plant in Olney, Texas, to its new owner in South
Dakota. Investigators have declined detailed comment or speculation on
the cause of the collision. The crash occurred near Hollister, Okla.,
in an area commonly used by the air training wings based at Sheppard
AFB near Wichita Falls, Texas. AVweb reported another
military/civilian collision in November 2004. The NTSB's current
synopsis and probable cause (a PDF file) are available online. After
that collision, the F-16 pilot ejected safely and walked to a local
house to use the phone.

The Cessna pilot was killed.
------------------------------------------------------------------



  #3  
Old February 8th 05, 07:16 PM
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:18:46 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote in
. net::

It is always interesting how people talk about a slow airplane "crashing
into" a fast airplane. Obviously it isn't possible and a more reasonable
explanation is that the faster airplane flew right into the path of slower
airplane.


The issue is more about which aircraft had the right-of-way than who
hit whom.

Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil
MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a
transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS). Due to
the lack of Mode C altitude information for the Air Tractor, the radar
data won't show if it was in a climb or descent at the time of the
mishap.

I don't see how the fact of the MAC occurring within a MOA had any
affect in this case.


  #4  
Old February 8th 05, 07:54 PM
Steve.T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Since the AT is much slower than the T37, as someone else pointed out,
it is very difficult for it to crash into the T37. So who has the
right-of-way when one is being "cut off" by another, much faster a/c?

Outside of CLE airspace I was flying a C172 under the hood with a CFII
in the right seat. We were on an approach, in contact with CLE approach
when we almost became a hood ornament for a twin. You could say that we
failed to give way to the a/c to our right.

So I do think speed has something to do with this MAC.

Regards,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

  #5  
Old February 8th 05, 10:09 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil
MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a
transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS).


If you're referring to the F-16/172 midair near Bradenton Florida, that
occurred on November 16th 2000. ATC is "off the hook" in that one as well.


  #6  
Old February 8th 05, 10:10 PM
Allen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Steve.T" wrote in message
ups.com...
Since the AT is much slower than the T37, as someone else pointed out,
it is very difficult for it to crash into the T37. So who has the
right-of-way when one is being "cut off" by another, much faster a/c?

Outside of CLE airspace I was flying a C172 under the hood with a CFII
in the right seat. We were on an approach, in contact with CLE approach
when we almost became a hood ornament for a twin. You could say that we
failed to give way to the a/c to our right.

So I do think speed has something to do with this MAC.

Regards,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument


If you were in VMC then VFR rules apply (see and avoid) and it is both
pilot's responsibilty to watch for traffic. Otherwise just get flight
following, couple up the autopilot, and read a good book. Let the other guy
watch out for you

Allen


  #7  
Old February 8th 05, 10:21 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Allen" wrote in message
m...

If you were in VMC then VFR rules apply (see and avoid) and it is both
pilot's responsibilty to watch for traffic. Otherwise just get flight
following, couple up the autopilot, and read a good book. Let the other
guy
watch out for you


VFR rules apply when you're operating VFR, IFR rules apply when you're
operating IFR, "see and avoid" applies when weather conditions permit.


  #8  
Old February 9th 05, 05:12 AM
Mike Williamson
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Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:18:46 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote in
. net::


It is always interesting how people talk about a slow airplane "crashing
into" a fast airplane. Obviously it isn't possible and a more reasonable
explanation is that the faster airplane flew right into the path of slower
airplane.



The issue is more about which aircraft had the right-of-way than who
hit whom.

Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil
MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a
transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS). Due to
the lack of Mode C altitude information for the Air Tractor, the radar
data won't show if it was in a climb or descent at the time of the
mishap.

I don't see how the fact of the MAC occurring within a MOA had any
affect in this case.



Perhaps not legally. For the practical matter, I'd say that the
pilot flying should have understood that the presence of the MOA
indicated that there was a pretty good chance that someone would
be using the area for some type of practice, and that perhaps
either a bit of caution was called for, perhaps by flying under,
over, or around the MOA in question. If not willing to do that,
then contacting the local controlling agency should have ensured
that the aircraft operating in the MOA were aware of his presence
and extra precautions taken. It would, almost certainly, have saved
the man's life. Of course, a transponder would likely have done
the same thing, whether he bothered to talk to anyone or not.

Mike
  #9  
Old February 9th 05, 05:59 AM
Larry Dighera
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On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:09:13 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
t::


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil
MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a
transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS).


If you're referring to the F-16/172 midair near Bradenton Florida, that
occurred on November 16th 2000. ATC is "off the hook" in that one as well.


I call your attention to number 4 of the NTSB Findings:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...1FA028B&rpt=fi

A conflict alert between the lead F-16 and the Cessna activated 10
times between 15:47:39 and 15:48:03. The developmental controller
stated that he heard an alarm, but could not recall where it was.
The controller providing the instruction did not recall if he saw
or heard a conflict alert, and no conflict alert was issued.

4. (C) ARTCC SERVICE - NOT ISSUED - ATC PERSONNEL(DEP/APCH)
  #10  
Old February 9th 05, 06:14 AM
Mike Rapoport
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Default


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:18:46 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote in
. net::

It is always interesting how people talk about a slow airplane "crashing
into" a fast airplane. Obviously it isn't possible and a more reasonable
explanation is that the faster airplane flew right into the path of slower
airplane.


The issue is more about which aircraft had the right-of-way than who
hit whom.

Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil
MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a
transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS). Due to
the lack of Mode C altitude information for the Air Tractor, the radar
data won't show if it was in a climb or descent at the time of the
mishap.

I don't see how the fact of the MAC occurring within a MOA had any
affect in this case.



I don't see how it is possible for a slow airplane to avoid a much faster
one converging from behind and to the right.

Mike
MU-2



 




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