Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...

Belonging to a Chinese minority group brings useful
privileges such as being allowed to have more children

An interesting statement.

Someone asked me the other day why India's population is still climbing at a
hell of a rate when the Chinese population is pretty stable, and why can't
the Indian government impose 'child quotas' in the same way they do in
China.

I explained that any Indian government that tried would be out on their
arses at the next election, that India is a democracy and that people there
take that democracy very seriously indeed.

I wish people would take politics as seriously here.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...

Here's a report that isn't so flattering either.

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

This one stinks.

UK contact is a mobile phone number, email address is a free Microsoft one,
no bricks and mortar locations, no names of people you can call up and talk
to, not even somewhere you can send money to...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"eatfastnoodle" wrote in message
...
On Jun 6, 11:24 pm, "Jeffrey Hamilton" wrote:
"PaPaPeng" wrote in message

...

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

If the Chinese people are really lucky, one day they will be able to
watch
the likes of CNN and decide for themselves whether or not they find the
reporting to their taste.

They watch CNN alright. Jack Cafferty found that out the last time he
made a slur and had to apologize. However, to really influence the
mass of oppressed Chinese CNN and other western media will have to
broadcast in Chinese. There's a 1.3 billion x 2 eyeballs there to
catch. Its a worthwhile investment to mess up their minds.

I understand perfectly *WhoFlungDung*, freedom of the press is your
greatest
fear.
It will eventually erode the communist's hold on the Chinese people.
It can't happen soon enough.

cheers....Jeff

You are too ideological,

Am I indeed ?

as long as the Communists do a reasonable
good job,

Collapsing schools send a horrible message to the masses.
Define *reasonable job*.

its hold on power, Chinese people, whatever, will be just fine.

Without *freedom* how would we ever know ?

You may not know that it's much more likely for a Chinese to be
pro-government and anti-West after he/she is exposed to freedom of
expression.

Quite possible and if you are so sure of the Chinese people's preference for
the one-party Communist system, then it should be relatively easy to
determine if democracy is more to their taste .

Should it not ?


cheers....Jeff

In article ,
says...

Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
they do not comply


WTF ?

Unconstitutionally ?

Sounds like someone is confused.

--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

In article ,
tankfixer wrote:

In article ,
says...

Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
they do not comply


WTF ?

Unconstitutionally ?

Sounds like someone is confused.

Maybe he mean unconditionally?

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:31 -0700, "Billzz"
wrote:


"JJS" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,

wrote:

-stuff snipped-

That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.


Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?

Joe

I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most
people
do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and
the
brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he
stated
that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
something.

As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so
I
did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the
Dalai
Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and
sang
songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never
out.
Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know.
I
know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe
someone
will be helped.

Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was
interesting.
I don't care, one way or the other.


I guess by now you would have noticed that no one really cares about
the Tibetans unless they can be used to bash China.

Here's a report that isn't so flattering either.

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.


Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.

It also appears this *sect* has been banned in the past, both the 5th and
13th DL's banned it.
Apparently the prime argument is *it* is _too_ spiritual, thusly negating
the Buddist side overly. Or words to that effect

ps: how are those Galun Fong folk doing ?
.....oh yeah and how is that Chinese Communist appointee to the Roman
Catholic Church of China as it's new Bishop, making out ?

cheers....Jeff

In article ,
NVALID says...
In article ,
tankfixer wrote:

In article ,
says...

Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
they do not comply


WTF ?

Unconstitutionally ?

Sounds like someone is confused.

Maybe he mean unconditionally?

Who knows, he probably doesn't


--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.


Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.


Neither have I heard of the Shugdens before this article. The commies
don't play this kind of game - sponsor religious factions. First of
all Beijing wouldn't know how to manipulate religious kooks. Secondly
such schemes will explode in any manipulator's face. Thirdly, the DL
is not worth spending time or money on. The DL's power to influence
China is strictly a figment of his Western sponsor's imagination.

The DL certainly has no illusions. Beijing's talks with his
representatives are handled at a pretty low administrative level. In
the half century, or specifically the last 30 years when the DL
switched tactics to claim that he no longer seeks independence, only
the spiritual and cultural wellbeing of Tibetans, the DL will always
derail the the talks by making Politically Incorrect (PC) comments
like claiming that he represents 6 1/2 million Tibetans (it is 2 1/2
million)over the the territories where there are Tibetan communities.
Thus the DL is claiming an empire that spreads into adjacent Chinese
provinces that were never part of Tibet. This nuance will be missed
by Western supporters most of whom have trouble even finding Tibet on
the map. And the DL has a pretty good armory of just such PC stuff to
pick from to play his game.

I picked a Tibet website at random http://www.tibet.com/. I haven't
read it in detail and neither will you. But do scan the contents
under a few random titles anyway. They are practically all political
claims. Now had the DL really wanted to return to Tibet the common
sense thing to do would be to keep quiet on politics until the
opportunity for a personal face to face with the Chinese President or
some Politburo Member is secured first. This will be tacit
recognition of his equal status at the highest political level. China
isn't that dumb to fall for that kind of trick but these are the
negotiating positions DL should be aiming for. An alternative
maneuver would be to trick the Chinese into letting him visit Tibet
itself. In the 30 years the DL has learned to play his game with
exquisite finesse - not to ever personally get anywhere near the
negotiation table and blame the Chinese for it. Pass around the
collection plate please. The DL is going to make another tour to
gullible rich white countries.


It also appears this *sect* has been banned in the past, both the 5th and
13th DL's banned it.
Apparently the prime argument is *it* is _too_ spiritual, thusly negating
the Buddist side overly. Or words to that effect

Well this Shugden sect is in England where the DL has no jurisdiction,
and in Nepal the Nepalese get to make the rules who can and cannot do.
The DL's goons have no business policing anything. What about
religious freedom you and the DL claim to defend to your last dollar?
Didn't I see a shaven headed white woman convert talking to our
Guardian reporter? What's she to the DL as a religious threat that
her type must be suppressed viciously?

If the ban goes back to the 5th and 13th DLs then this is amazing new
evidence that China's suzerainty over Tibet goes back before the 5th
DL as certainly that relationship could not have started with the 5th.
[It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of
China. you say]

ps: how are those Galun Fong folk doing ?
.....oh yeah and how is that Chinese Communist appointee to the Roman
Catholic Church of China as it's new Bishop, making out ?


Quite well thank you. Do send them a letter to get their first hand
account of life in China.

American and a number of rich white country church groups used to be
all worked up about China's persecution of FLG practitioners. They
fought for their exit from China and sponsored their resettlement in
their church community. They even provided resettlement support
(housing, money) and transition assistance (jobs, interpreters,
navigating the bureaucracy, etc.) until they wised up to the fact they
had been had by scheme for mature single Chinese women with little
career prospects in China to get into the US (Australia and Canada),
the short cut way complete with a red carpet welcome.

For a time between the 80s into the 90s there were other creative
schemes besides the FLG to get into the rich white countries.
Political dissent (still a good one but very hard to
establish),anti-communism and love for democracy always worked for a
time, human rights, anti-one child policy, forced abortions, religious
persecution and a few more I can't recall at the moment. Those too
impatient or not clever enough to cook up a con took to rusty ship way
across the Pacific. US public sentiment forced the US government to
grant instant refugees status to those faux refugees from Chinese
persecution. They all heve the same well rehersed sob story if the
media reports are anything to go by. But even dumb Americans cannot
remain dumb forever. Mid ocean interception by USN units, isolation
in Guam, and of course stateless limbo, put a stop to that. 9-11
helped.

These living breathing examples of persecuted Chinese whose epic
struggles against heroic odds to make it out of oppressive China to
the West have been around for 30 years now. Tens of housands had
escaped from prison China and found refuge in rich white countries.
Surely by now one would have expected heart rendering Puliter Prize
stories to have been published, to have articulate spokesmen and women
who could give voice to their (masses of persecuted Chinese) common
experiences. What about those heroes of Tiananmen Square who made it
to the West?

Given that the 80s to 90s was the peak you are a kind of behind the
times in the smarts index. You know what Jeff? You are such a nice
guy so concerned about the welfare of the oppressed. There's
something you can do after all. Sponsor a Tibetan from Tibet and
educate him or her. That person then becomes a productive member able
to function in a modern society. That person can help his or her
fellow Tibetans better than you will ever hope to do. Go for it.

cheers....Jeff

Double cheers to you too.
for mature single Chinese women with little career prospects in China
to get into the US (Australia and Canada), the short cut way complete
with a red carpet welcome.

For a time between the 80s into the 90s there were other creative
schemes besides the FLG to get into the rich white countries.
Political dissent (still a good one but very hard to
establish),anti-communism and love for democracy always worked for a
time, human rights, anti-one child policy, forced abortions, religious
persecution and a few more I can't recall at the moment. Those too
impatient or not clever enough to cook up a con took to rusty ship way
across the Pacific. US public sentiment forced the US government to
grant instant refugees status to those faux refugees from Chinese
persecution. They all heve the same well rehersed sob story if the
media reports are anything to go by. But even dumb Americans cannot
remain dumb forever. Mid ocean interception by USN units, isolation
in Guam, and of course stateless limbo, put a stop to that. 9-11
helped.

These living breathing examples of persecuted Chinese whose epic
struggles against heroic odds to make it out of oppressive China to
the West have been around for 30 years now. Tens of housands had
escaped from prison China and found refuge in rich white countries.
Surely by now one would have expected heart rendering Puliter Prize
stories to have been published, to have articulate spokesmen and women
who could give voice to their (masses of persecuted Chinese) common
experiences. What about those heroes of Tiananmen Square who made it
to the West?

Given that the 80s to 90s was the peak you are a kind of behind the
times in the smarts index. You know what Jeff? You are such a nice
guy so concerned about the welfare of the oppressed. There's
something you can do after all. Sponsor a Tibetan from Tibet and
educate him or her. That person then becomes a productive member able
to function in a modern society. That person can help his or her
fellow Tibetans better than you will ever hope to do. Go for it.

cheers....Jeff

Double cheers to you too.

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:37:06 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Me? I am having an excellent time messing you up without even trying.

What ever gave you the impression _you_are messing with me?


Jeff buddy. I got your attention didn't I? I also made you use your
noggin to think up of something to get back at me. And you will have
to keep trying until you come up with something until that something
hits a target. I don't know about you but coming up with that
"something" sounds kinda like pretty hard work for a low wattage fella
like you. That's what "messing you up" is. Psst. The PRC couldn't
possibly pay me enough for doing this.

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.


I expect your google turned up this story too?
===========================================

A quiet, middle-class café in Westminster, in the political heart of
London, is the last place you would expect to hear someone badmouthing
the Dalai Lama. When that someone is a Buddhist nun, dressed in
trademark maroon robes and with shorn hair, it seems even more
peculiar. 'The Dalai Lama is a hypocrite and an oppressor', says
Kelsang Pema over a glass of water with ice (what else?), as she
fishes from her rucksack 'stacks of evidence' to show me why the Dalai
Lama 'cannot be trusted'. A well-to-do blonde-haired woman in a power
suit shoots us strange looks from the adjacent table. Slating the
Dalai Lama, especially on a crisp, sunny Monday morning as he is due
to arrive in Britain for an official visit, is not the done thing in
polite circles in London.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/5170/

Kelsang Pema - birth name: Helen Gradwell, born and brought up in
Carlisle, England - is a leading member of the Western Shugden
Society, a group of Buddhists who worship the 'wisdom deity' Dorje
Shugden. Buddhists, especially in Tibet, have been saying the Dorje
Shugden prayer for more than 350 years. Pema tells me 'the prayer
becomes your life, your breath'. Buddhists call on Dorje Shugden to
'help us develop pure qualities', she says, 'including love,
compassion and patience'. There's only one problem: the Dalai Lama,
head of the Tibetan government-in-exile in northern India and
considered by many Buddhists to be a figurehead of their faith,
effectively outlawed the worship of Dorje Shugden in 1996 and
overnight transformed Shugden-following Buddhists into heretics and
untouchables.
In March 1996, the Dalai Lama decreed that the worship of Dorje
Shugden was 'evil'. In what is believed to have been part of an
internal power struggle in his fiefdom-in-exile in Dharamsala,
northern India, the Dalai Lama ordered all worshippers of Dorje
Shugden to leave his temple on 21 March 1996. A week later, on 30
March 1996, the Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies (the parliament
in exile) passed a resolution banning the worship of Dorje Shugden by
Tibetan government employees, and the Private Office of His Holiness
the Dalai Lama issued a formal decree for everyone to stop practising
the Dorje Shugden prayer. The New Internationalist reported that the
Lama's office wrote to every monastery in northern India and Tibet
demanding that they 'ensure total implementation of this decree by
each and everyone… If there is anyone who continues to worship [Dorje
Shugden], make a list of their names, house name, birth place… Keep
the original and send us a copy of the list.' (1)
'After the Dalai Lama's decree, anyone who continued to follow Dorje
Shugden got it in the neck', Pema says. By 1998, two years after the
Dalai Lama described Dorje Shugden as 'evil' and instructed
monasteries to collect the names of those disobedient Buddhists who
continued worshipping it, an Indian human rights lawyer, PK Dey, had
collected 300 statements from Tibetans in exile in India who had been
either threatened or attacked for failing to comply with the Dalai
Lama's orders. 'Those worshipping Shugden are experiencing tremendous
harassment', said Dey. 'This is not in any particular part of the
country but everywhere there are Tibetans.' (2) In December 1996, one
72-year-old woman, Sonam Bhuti, whose family had worshipped Dorje
Shugden for generations, reported to the Office of the Notary in Delhi
(a civil law institution) that Tibetan officials had ransacked her and
others' homes, 'forcibly taking out the idols and paintings [of Dorje
Shugden]' and 'burning' and 'breaking' them (3).
The Dalai Lama's officials sought to expel Dorje Shugden worshippers
from positions of power and responsibility in both northern India and
Tibet. On 18 April 1996, the Tibetan Department of Health wrote to
doctors and threatened to sack any who continued worshipping the
deity: 'In case there is anyone who doesn't abide by the addresses of
His Holiness to give up Shugden worship… such persons should submit
their resignation.' (4) On 19 May 1998, the Tibetan Department of
Religion and Culture advised welfare and settlement officers of the
conditions under which Tibetan monks and nuns could leave Tibet or
northern India to travel to other parts of the world. Condition no.3
required 'attestation from their monastery that neither the host [nor
the] invitee is a devotee of Dhogyal [a derogatory name for Dorje
Shugden]' (5). In 1998, the New Internationalist reported that there
was little point in Dorje Shugden worshippers protesting against their
maltreatment - one group of worshippers was told by Tibetan officials
that 'concepts like democracy and freedom of religion are empty when
it comes to the wellbeing of the Dalai Lama' (6).
Into the 2000s, the Dalai Lama has continued to harry the remaining
Shugden followers. The German newspaper Suddeutsche Zeitung reported
recently that 'in Tibet, many practise Shugden only "discreetly",
since their practice has been rejected by the Dalai Lama… as evil'
(7). In January this year, the Dalia Lama held a referendum among
Tibetan monks to decide whether it is acceptable to worship Dorje
Shugden. Yet Pema says it wasn't a referendum 'in any democratic
sense'. Instead, monks had to choose a red stick or a yellow stick
from a basket, publicly and in front of their superiors; they picked
the yellow stick if they opposed the worship of Dorje Shugden and the
red stick if they supported the right of people to worship the deity.
Perhaps not surprisingly, given the Dalai Lama's decrees against the
worship of Dorje Shugden and the public, archaic nature of the
referendum, the yellow sticks won (8). 'In Britain and America, the
Dalai Lama is a religious hero. But for many he is a religious
dictator', says Pema.
Some denounce the Dorje Shugden followers as mouthpieces for China.
Pema denies it. 'Anyone who criticises the Dalai Lama is written off
as a Chinese puppet', she says. 'It's just another way of shutting
down debate. People in the West look upon Tibet as this ideal place,
but Tibetans find it hard to have serious debates or to stand up to
the Dalai Lama. It's almost medieval.' Others have made a similar
point about the way the Dalai Lama's unquestionable status as high
representative of the Tibetan people and all things Buddhist stifles
the development of Tibetan public life. In her book The Tibetan
Independent Movement: Political, Religious and Gandhian Perspectives,
Jane Ardley argued that in terms of the development of internal
political life in Tibet and Dharamsala, '[It] is apparent that it is
the Dalai Lama's role as ultimate spiritual authority that is holding
back the political process of democratisation. The assumption that he
occupies the correct moral ground from a spiritual perspective means
that any challenge to his political authority may be interpreted as
anti-religious.' (9)

Others claim that the 'Dorje Shugden clique' is a cult. They do indeed
have cultish qualities, devoting their life and love to an archaic
Buddhist deity. But then many Buddhist and other religious groups
could be described as 'cultish'. The most striking thing about the
Dorje Shugden story is the Western media's lack of interest in it.
Pema has had meetings with British MPs - yet while some 'were
interested', she says 'they knew that criticising the Dalai Lama would
damage their reputations'. She has held press conferences 'but they
are usually poorly attended'. The media do, however, turn up to the
Western Shugden Society's anti-Dalai Lama protests - such as the one
that will take place at the Royal Albert Hall on Thursday this week -
but usually only so they can publish stories about 'mad Buddhists
attacking the Dalai Lama', she says.
The state of denial in the West about some of the Dalai Lama's alleged
power-tripping, or at least the unquestioning attitude towards the
Dalai Lama and everything that he does, highlights the role that he
plays for many Western celebs, commentators and politicians today:
he's a cartoon 'good guy', giggling, pure and righteous, who
apparently should be unconditionally applauded for standing up to the
'Evil Chinese'. All of the Dalai Lama's bad points - his origins in
the stifling medievalism of 1930s Tibet; his archaic practices; his
disregard for 'concepts like democracy and freedom of religion'; his
backing from the CIA in its Cold War with the Chinese - are simply
ignored, as His Holiness is invited to guest-edit French Vogue, attend
charity auctions with Sharon 'Look at My Vagina' Stone, and rub
shoulders with Richard Gere. Pema shows me the Independent on Sunday,
published the day before we met, which has a feature about the Dalai
Lama 'charming the West'. There are around 12 photos showing him
meeting celebrites and other do-gooders. Yet in two of the photos, it
isn't the Dalai Lama at all; it's a different Lama. Maybe these
Tibetans all look the same to British picture editors.
'He's just a photograph and a symbol to many people in the West', says
Pema. 'But the reality is very different.'
Brendan O'Neill is editor of spiked. Visit his website here.