Flying Thru Congested Areas

I am planning a long cross country where I am trying to minmiize the
time the trip will take (while, of course, trying to be as safe as
possible). The shortest route would take me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific). Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).

If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

-Sami
N2057M
Piper Turbo Arrow III

Hey Sami
If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

I am planning a long cross country where I am trying to minmiize the
time the trip will take (while, of course, trying to be as safe as
possible). The shortest route would take me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific). Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).

If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

-Sami
N2057M
Piper Turbo Arrow III

Jeff wrote:
: Hey Sami
: If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
: any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
: reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
: the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
: airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
: going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
: If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
: vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
: got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
: like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
: phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

I had that decision a few weeks ago flying from Milwaukee to SW Virginia.
Flying around Chicago is great if VFR (2000' or lower right along the lakeshore). I
ended up "scud running" (MVFR 1500' AGL SCT OVC) along the lake/downtown until though
the Bravo. Then I got a clearance and climbed to more favorable winds. The time before
I had to file IFR, and they vectored me halfway to Iowa (Rockford, IL) to keep me out
of the Class B. Since I won't fly over the lake in my Cherokee, that was the only
option.

I would imagine that if you go IFR, it could be similar around the big places.
VFR you can get up on top and tell 'em to get bent....

YMMV
-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

"O. Sami Saydjari" The shortest route would take
me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific).
I'm not familiar with this route but did you do a great circle route *and*
plot the actual great circle route on the chart to determine the
'conflicts'? I assume you are using a GPS to fly and it will follow the
great circle route using direct routing but it is not always obvious what
that line looks like on the chart unless you plot a few points. A fuel or
rest stop can change the entire equation once fuel prices are factored in.
Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).
The big question here is IFR or VFR. IFR you take your chances with regard
to routing. You can influence it but not control it. OTOH, you get more
help in reducing the probablility of a collision. Depending on weather, IFR
may be the only way or the optimal way depending on the weather. Or VFR may
be the way to stay out of the weather. If weather offers a choice, I find
IFR often easier on such flights because of the help in airspace management
(TFRs, Restricted, etc) and I prefer to fly at IFR altitudes with maximum
ATC involvement.
If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

If you are IFR capable, planning a VFR flight, but without a lot of
experience flying such flights, fly IFR and use it as a learn-the-system
experience. That's the only way to really figure out the best way to do
such a flight in the future

"Jeff" wrote in message ...
Hey Sami
If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR.

VFR in the NE I just plan a straight line route and get flight following all
the way up. While I get wiggled around a little bit (my flight path would
take me through PHL and EWR's approach path at a rather shallow angle,
they turn me parallel to the runways for a few miles and then back on
course). As a matter of fact before the *&#@$! Secret Service screwed
up the DC airspace, I could count on direct over the top of BWI and ADW
(to my home field which is just about 6 miles from ADW).

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you.


Vector IFR around VFR aircraft in the Class E airspace above the Class B? I
think not.

you have never been vectored around VFR traffic before?
Happens to me everytime I file IFR.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

Vector IFR around VFR aircraft in the Class E airspace above the Class B? I
think not.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

you have never been vectored around VFR traffic before?
Happens to me everytime I file IFR.


That's fine, as long as it's in airspace in which ATC has the responsibility
to separate VFR aircraft from IFR aircraft and thus the authority to
initiate vectors for separation. But we're not talking about such airspace.
Of course, an aircraft can always request such vectors.

Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific).

I'm not familiar with this route but did you do a great circle route *and*
plot the actual great circle route on the chart to determine the
'conflicts'? I assume you are using a GPS to fly and it will follow the
great circle route using direct routing but it is not always obvious what
that line looks like on the chart unless you plot a few points. A fuel or
rest stop can change the entire equation once fuel prices are factored in.


Well, I used the route planning software available at the duats website.
I picked the low-level victor airway that it recommended....and thats
the one that had the conflicts. How does one directly find the great
circle route during flight planning (I assume my GPS uses great cricle
when it does a direct-to course)? I figured I would be better off on
victor airways as a matter of extra safety, in case my GPS fails...but I
am open to be talked out of that viewpoint.

So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer? I am not saying this is a particularly good idea, or
particularly "polite"...I am just asking a question here.


-Sami

wrote:
Jeff wrote:
: Hey Sami
: If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
: any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
: reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
: the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
: airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
: going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
: If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
: vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
: got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
: like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
: phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

I had that decision a few weeks ago flying from Milwaukee to SW Virginia.
Flying around Chicago is great if VFR (2000' or lower right along the lakeshore). I
ended up "scud running" (MVFR 1500' AGL SCT OVC) along the lake/downtown until though
the Bravo. Then I got a clearance and climbed to more favorable winds. The time before
I had to file IFR, and they vectored me halfway to Iowa (Rockford, IL) to keep me out
of the Class B. Since I won't fly over the lake in my Cherokee, that was the only
option.

I would imagine that if you go IFR, it could be similar around the big places.
VFR you can get up on top and tell 'em to get bent....

YMMV
-Cory