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#11
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)
wrote: Cardinal RG strikes me as just a tad faster/sleeker It's slower by 10 knots... Says who? -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
#12
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)
" wrote in
ups.com: So I've decided to buy a plane (in July of 2007), and I've come to a dilemma. I learned to fly on a Piper Arrow and very much like that plane, though I haven't flown one in over a year, what I have been flying is a Cessna Cardinal 177 RGII, very nice plane, great handling and a pleasure to fly as well, I live in Hawai'i and shipping plays a big part in inflating the value of planes here... Any plane I buy I will be putting an AVIDYNE avionics twin LCD system into so I don't care about the stock avionics packaged, hence my dilemma is as follows... I can either buy my flight clubs 177 for 50K (without avionics and a high time engine (for 20K more the clubs mechanic will put a brand new engine and prop on). I can buy a Piper Arrow on the mainland and have it shipped to Hawai'i for about 10K (from Cali), and refit that with the AVIDYNE system. or... I can buy a brand new Piper Arrow for a whopping 427,000 (with the AVIDYINE and other options I can't get on the older planes stock). And have peace of mind in a brand new plane that will last a long time without incurring added maintenance expenses. Whichever one I buy I will be doing a "lease-back" to the club to allow other guys to fly it, with a small profit for me (mainly to pay for gas and maintenance on the plane when I fly it) Any advice is appreciated. I wouldn't recommend leasing back a $427,000 plane, even to a club. I don't know how your club members treat your club's planes, and our club members for the MOST part treat our planes wonderfully, but it takes just one, and from my experience usually there are several... There are different schools of thought on Lease Back in general - a million threads in this group that you can read. I know because I considered a leaseback on a new Cessna 172 a couple of years ago. But the bottom line is that your fellow club members are probably not going to be looking out for your $427,000 investment the way that you would, and they will utilize the plane like any other in the club. So while you may have a full 2000 hours before engine service, you'll still be replacing bald tires, oil filters, wingtips, light bulbs, and switches at the same rate whether you spend $427,000 or $127,000. In fact, you may have more of it on the $427,000 if it is more popular with the club. But your hull damage insurance bill will be significantly higher, which will inflate the hourly rate to the club, which may offset the desire of the members to fly it, especially if the membership is in the club to reduce their flying expenses. Furthermore, some members may steer clear of a new plane in fear of damaging it and being responsible. I don't know what your club's rates are, what the usage is, or what planes are available. But my guess is that you will be most profitable if you buy the club's cardinal, or import one like it off the mainland, even if you upgrade the engine, prop, and avionics. Especially if the club doesn't already have an Arrow, I think you may find that people who did not learn to fly on an Arrow may also shy away from it if they've flown high wing all their life. |
#13
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)
Dan Luke wrote: wrote: Cardinal RG strikes me as just a tad faster/sleeker It's slower by 10 knots... Says who? -- Dan C172RG at BFM The POH Also most of our club planes are brand new (8 years)... minus the Cardinal and the Chieftains. |
#14
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper ArrowIII (brand new)
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#15
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)
Judah wrote: " wrote in ups.com: So I've decided to buy a plane (in July of 2007), and I've come to a dilemma. I learned to fly on a Piper Arrow and very much like that plane, though I haven't flown one in over a year, what I have been flying is a Cessna Cardinal 177 RGII, very nice plane, great handling and a pleasure to fly as well, I live in Hawai'i and shipping plays a big part in inflating the value of planes here... Any plane I buy I will be putting an AVIDYNE avionics twin LCD system into so I don't care about the stock avionics packaged, hence my dilemma is as follows... I can either buy my flight clubs 177 for 50K (without avionics and a high time engine (for 20K more the clubs mechanic will put a brand new engine and prop on). I can buy a Piper Arrow on the mainland and have it shipped to Hawai'i for about 10K (from Cali), and refit that with the AVIDYNE system. or... I can buy a brand new Piper Arrow for a whopping 427,000 (with the AVIDYINE and other options I can't get on the older planes stock). And have peace of mind in a brand new plane that will last a long time without incurring added maintenance expenses. Whichever one I buy I will be doing a "lease-back" to the club to allow other guys to fly it, with a small profit for me (mainly to pay for gas and maintenance on the plane when I fly it) Any advice is appreciated. I wouldn't recommend leasing back a $427,000 plane, even to a club. I don't know how your club members treat your club's planes, and our club members for the MOST part treat our planes wonderfully, but it takes just one, and from my experience usually there are several... There are different schools of thought on Lease Back in general - a million threads in this group that you can read. I know because I considered a leaseback on a new Cessna 172 a couple of years ago. But the bottom line is that your fellow club members are probably not going to be looking out for your $427,000 investment the way that you would, and they will utilize the plane like any other in the club. So while you may have a full 2000 hours before engine service, you'll still be replacing bald tires, oil filters, wingtips, light bulbs, and switches at the same rate whether you spend $427,000 or $127,000. In fact, you may have more of it on the $427,000 if it is more popular with the club. But your hull damage insurance bill will be significantly higher, which will inflate the hourly rate to the club, which may offset the desire of the members to fly it, especially if the membership is in the club to reduce their flying expenses. Furthermore, some members may steer clear of a new plane in fear of damaging it and being responsible. I don't know what your club's rates are, what the usage is, or what planes are available. But my guess is that you will be most profitable if you buy the club's cardinal, or import one like it off the mainland, even if you upgrade the engine, prop, and avionics. Especially if the club doesn't already have an Arrow, I think you may find that people who did not learn to fly on an Arrow may also shy away from it if they've flown high wing all their life. Bottom line is that the price isn't a bother for me... the pilots who rent my plane will be given the privelege of renting, not the right to rent it, due to the advanced avionics and refurbishment I would do on a used plane. Ultimatley I think that a 1970s Arrow would be the best choice with an interior refurbishment, in terms of price, the only question that will remain is how much do aftermarket installations of Avidyne systems and Autopilots etc. really cost, am I going to get a better "Deal" on the particular setup if I go with the brand new Arrow? |
#16
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)
wrote: Cardinal RG strikes me as just a tad faster/sleeker It's slower by 10 knots... Says who? The POH Also most of our club planes are brand new (8 years)... minus the Cardinal and the Chieftains. What are the book speeds for the Arrow? The Cardinal RG will do 140+ KTAS. One that won't do that is out of rig or has engine problems. -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
#17
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)
Dan Luke wrote: wrote: What are the book speeds for the Arrow? The Cardinal RG will do 140+ KTAS. One that won't do that is out of rig or has engine problems. -- Dan C172RG at BFM Book for the Arrow II ('72 - '76) is 143. If the engine/prop & (most importantly) rigging are in good shape you should get very close to that number. Mike PA28-180 |
#18
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)
Check with Aviation Consumer. They have a 2-volume set that compares
all common production airplanes, and the $75 (or so) price is peanuts compared with the cost of a purchase mistake. Each model has its advantages. The Cardinal looks sexy, provides rain protection, and is easy to get in and out. The Arrow has a simpler landing gear and a nice clear baggage area. |
#19
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)
Dan Luke wrote: wrote: Cardinal RG strikes me as just a tad faster/sleeker It's slower by 10 knots... Says who? The POH Also most of our club planes are brand new (8 years)... minus the Cardinal and the Chieftains. What are the book speeds for the Arrow? The Cardinal RG will do 140+ KTAS. One that won't do that is out of rig or has engine problems. -- Dan C172RG at BFM Arrow is 147 kias Vno, the Cardinal is 142 kias. Vne for the Arrow is 183 kias and 174 kias for the cardinal. Also the Arrow is, in my experience, friendlier in turbulence, don't get me wrong, the Cardinal is a great plane but I would "prefer" an Arrow after looking at all the details right now. |
#20
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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper ArrowIII (brand new)
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