If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
IFR student: circling approach struggles
All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine. Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet AGL. Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"xyzzy" wrote in message ... Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to final. It might help to give up the base leg and just make a 180 turn from downwind. Michael |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The
turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder) that will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank is 973' which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a 180. This should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a circling vis minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up as the square of the speed. Slow down. Mike MU-2 "xyzzy" wrote in message ... All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30 degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine. Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet AGL. Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
On 7/22/2005 12:10, xyzzy wrote:
All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30 degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine. Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet AGL. Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor. I can't imagine it would be OK to allow an uncoordinated turn. I have the same problems. It really feels unnatural. However, when I'm far enough from the runway in the downwind leg, the turns work out ok, although there isn't much time on the base leg. Basically I level the wings, verify that I can see the runway, and then begin my descent and turn to final. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student Sacramento, CA |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
As others have written, slow down. What aircraft are you flying? What
is your circling airspeed? I got my instrument rating a month ago and at no point did I have to practice slipping turns. Doesn't sound like the right way to address the problem. xyzzy wrote: Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Hmmm good point, my instructor has been on me to keep the downwind
tight, maybe I'm making it too tight. And also probably not rolling into the 30 degree bank fast enough. slipping slowing down the turn, instructor sez to steepen the bank and slip, because I am also rolling out on final too high. Mike Rapoport wrote: If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder) that will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank is 973' which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a 180. This should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a circling vis minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up as the square of the speed. Slow down. Mike MU-2 "xyzzy" wrote in message ... All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30 degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine. Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet AGL. Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Yossarian wrote:
As others have written, slow down. What aircraft are you flying? What is your circling airspeed? Flying a piper warrior, usually at 80 knots by then. As Mike R. said, I may be keeping the downwind too tight. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
xyzzy wrote:
All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30 degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine. Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet AGL. Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor. No, but then I never was told during my primary training that 30 degrees was a bank limit. :-) One advantage of learning to fly from an old-timer instructor. Seriously, when flying at reasonable speeds (80K or so) for most light airplanes, I've never found excessive banks to be needed to fly a circling approach. How fast are you coming down final? Matt |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
xyzzy wrote:
Hmmm good point, my instructor has been on me to keep the downwind tight, maybe I'm making it too tight. And also probably not rolling into the 30 degree bank fast enough. slipping slowing down the turn, instructor sez to steepen the bank and slip, because I am also rolling out on final too high. You can descend during the turn and still keep the turn coordinated. Matt |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Something way wrong is happening in your training.
First, read what Mike Rapoport wrote - it's correct and I won't repeat it. Second, what exactly are you using to estimate distance from the runway on downwind? You should be about 3000-4000 ft away from the runway on downwind. Any tighter is unnecessary and undesirable. Third, steep banks and uncoordinated maneuvers on a circling approach are bad news. You can do whatever you want day-VFR (in gliders we consider 45 degrees of bank in the pattern normal) but when flying at night, with flight visibility 1 mile in mist, it's just too easy to lose visual references and lose control. Unfortunately, you really won't get a flavor of what a REAL circling approach (one where the vis is close to mins) is like if all you ever do is fly under the hood on nice days, then lift the hood and circle in good VFR. The hard part of the circling approach to mins starts AFTER you go visual. Fourth, your circle should be planned. By that I mean that before you ever reach the IAF (or intercept the FAC inbound) you should already have your ground track figured out, and you should know where the descent begins. It begins at whatever point is necessary to maintain a 3-4 degree descent to the runway. That's about 400-500 fpm at 80 kts. Planning anything steeper doesn't give you much in the way of options if you find yourself high. Michael |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Wow - heard on the air... (long) | Nathan Young | Piloting | 68 | July 25th 05 06:51 PM |
Our first IFR cross-country trip: NY-MI-IL-MI-NY | Longworth | Piloting | 16 | July 15th 05 08:12 PM |
VOR/DME Approach Question | Chip Jones | Instrument Flight Rules | 47 | August 29th 04 05:03 AM |
Canadian holding procedures | Derrick Early | Instrument Flight Rules | 24 | July 22nd 04 04:03 PM |
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools | RT | Military Aviation | 104 | September 25th 03 03:17 PM |