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ASW27B prices falling



 
 
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  #31  
Old August 10th 17, 11:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 1,521
Default ASW27B prices falling

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 4:14:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 1:10:27 PM UTC-6, wrote:

Does your '27 have a max gross of more than 1102 lb?
Curious.
UH


Hank, I would consider you to be much more knowledgable about these models than I am. As far as I know, both models were certified to 500kg = 1102..31 lbs. max mass, but some pilots of average size/mass in the straight 27 with water bags had reported having difficulty getting enough water in the wings to reach that. Large pilots or gliders heavy from repairs/excess equipment would not have that difficulty. The wet wings work very well and hold all the water they were designed for. Like you did on yours, mine has much bigger dump valves and plumbing installed which gives very good dump times..

Another straight 27- 27B difference is the taller factory winglets on the B model, giving slightly more effective span. Some have reported slightly better handling. I doubt I would be able to tell the difference, but possibly some can. As you know, the handling is absolutely superb on any of these- with or without full water.

Gary


You are quite right that the earlier 27's can be harder to get to max weight.
Ads
  #32  
Old August 11th 17, 03:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 110
Default ASW27B prices falling

At 20:18 10 August 2017, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
The new designs have not proven they are better than the 27. The

JS-3
whil=
e very innovative, has very low wing area, which might prove a

hindrance
on=
weaker days, and the V3 has not competed in 15 meters. The 27

might very
=
well be the equal of these newer gliders and priced right to get

younger
pi=
lots into competitive ships, just one reporter's musings.

Back in the 1980's I flew in 3 WGC's and pretty much had the ability
to get very a low serial number of any new glider that came out in
my class. I chose to fly in Standard Class because it had the most
restrictions - which limited the quantum performance leaps with new
technology, which meant that my investment in my glider tended to
hold its value better due to remaining competitive for a longer
period of time. Nonetheless, that was the period where the newer
generation of turbulated airfoils came out, and the advancement was
quite rapid. It was so rapid that I went through 6 different gliders in
8 years in order to keep on top of the performance changes, which
gave me the best chances in competitions.

Here is how I made the comparisons and the general assumptions I
made. Just for this argument's sake, say that the new glider had a
10 foot per minute cruise advantage over the old one (although I
saw much bigger differences than this on occasion). If one was
going to fly a WGC in a good wx place (like we did in Benalla 1987),
one could have 12 competition days. Assume cruising 75% of the
time, and 4 hour tasks, that meant 3 hours cruising per day X 12
days = 36 hours = 2160 minutes X 10FPM = 21,600 vertical feet
advantage over 12 racing days. Divide that by an average climb
rate of 500FPM, and you get ~43 minutes x ~6 points per minute
= ~260 points advantage the new glider has over the period of the
contest GIVEN flying the same and making the same mistakes.
You can reduce it down for a 9 day Nationals, and I come up with
around a ~195 point advantage at 10FPM.

As I said, some of the observed performance differences were
significantly larger than the 10FPM I use above. I looked at the
numbers and concluded that if I wanted to have any chance of
winning a WGC, I could not afford to give up that many points to
the best in the world in advance, so I switched gliders.

I still have the Discus-2b I bought in 1999, and there is still nothing
better in Standard Class. Additionally, in the USA, we have
handicapped this class, so my glider will stay competitive for the
foreseeable future. Unfortunately, D-2 prices have also fallen off
recently, most probably due to lack of participating pilots in the
class. Back in the 1980's, there were ~16,000 SSA members and 3
racing classes. Now, there are only ~12,000 members, and in
addition to Open, 15m, and STD, we have 18m, Sports, Club,
13.5m, World, and soon a multi-seat class. Too many classes and
too few competitors makes for a really screwy re-sale market....

As I said in another post, In Europe there are enough clubs and
participants where these gliders get absorbed much easier. The
newer gliders are all designed on computers, so they can design nice
handling into them to go along with the great performance. They no
longer have to compromise on the handling / performance issues, so
clubs can buy them and not have to worry too much about the
average member flying these birds. In the USA, most clubs are
pretty strapped for cash, so they will say "We can buy 4 G-102's for
the price of one ASW-27, and the average member won't really need
or see the performance difference." They will buy the used G-102
for ~$18K, and keep the other $62K in the bank for other
contingencies like rebuilding the tow plane engine, etc....

RO


  #33  
Old August 11th 17, 01:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 11
Default ASW27B prices falling

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 4:41:35 PM UTC-6, wrote:

Which one to buy? Buy the one in the best condition. An early one can be made to go as well as the last one off the line, admittedly with maybe a bit more work.
UH


I think this is the best advice. When I shopped for mine I consulted Gerhard Waibel and Loek Boermans, both of which I had known since the 90's and worked with some on classification and certification issues on the IGC's Sailplane Development Panel. I decided to buy an early model wet wing which had been expertly re-profiled by Fidel at Applebay aviation and has an essentially flawless finish and contour control. Some feel that mold stability changes somewhat with the passage of time and multiple production runs, so this is also possibly a factor to consider. I think one other point to look for is whether or not the wing lift pins have been replaced properly. If this hasn't been done, it will need to be done with time.

Re water capacities, the ASW 27/27B manual specifies early production bag capacity as limited to 26 gallons, optional and later larger bags 37 gallons (probably all straight 27's by now), and the integrated wet wings 51 gallons.

Other comments that the design performs as well as anything out there in 15m are probably accurate. The Diana 2 can be a bit of a handful to fly- and I would expect Sebastian Kawa to generally win whether he flies one of those or a 27. The JS-3 appears to be a beautiful design, but truly all of these are very similar in specifications. High wing integrations have been around for awhile (I have that on my Stemme) but mostly benefit low velocity flight. Whether or not that can make up for slightly less projected wing area, at the cost of more area than a straight dihedral implementation and a little bit of flow disturbance with kinked span-wise camber is the question. For the money, the ASW-27 series is a proven design with superb performance, handling, and safety factors- including outstanding short field landing performance with the sophisticated flap mixer system. In good conditions and loaded up, the running performance at 200-220kmh is remarkable.

I would expect Hank to know 27's about as well as anyone in this country and his advice would be valuable to would-be buyers.

Gary
  #34  
Old August 12th 17, 07:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
howard banks
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Posts: 38
Default ASW27B prices falling

It is worse than you say in your neat note. Membership in the SSA is now below 10,000. Adds to the upscrewyness of the used glider market.
  #35  
Old August 13th 17, 02:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Posts: 583
Default ASW27B prices falling

I will throw a different opinion out. Yes, it is supply and demand; but not that the 27b or V2a&b have been replaced by better aircraft.

This shift is because we have a small and shrinking population of racing pilots and an ever increasing number of classes. The std class was the first to go. We now have about four catagory one pilots left in std. class. 15m is being replaced by the 18m class. Most of the competitive pilots that were in std. class and 15m have now purchased 15/18m gliders. The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m. This shift was also exasperated by the creation of the 18/21 class of glider. These gliders now overlap in 18m and open.

In the US this is made worse by the distances required to drive to a contest. A multi class glider means you don't have to drive as far to compete.

The bottom line is those buying a new glider are going to buy a 15/18m or 18/21m glider. The demand for a straight 15m is going to fall. The FAI motto is "We never met a class of glider we won't create a new class for". At the same time it continues to price pilots out of the game and reduces number of people participating in the sport.
  #36  
Old August 13th 17, 01:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 110
Default ASW27B prices falling

At 01:04 13 August 2017, Tim Taylor wrote:
I will throw a different opinion out. Yes, it is supply and demand;

but
no=
t that the 27b or V2a&b have been replaced by better aircraft.

This shift is because we have a small and shrinking population of

racing
pi=
lots and an ever increasing number of classes. The std class was

the
first=
to go. We now have about four catagory one pilots left in std.

class.
15=
m is being replaced by the 18m class. Most of the competitive

pilots that
=
were in std. class and 15m have now purchased 15/18m gliders.

The balance
s=
hifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m

gliders
r=
ather than straight 15m. This shift was also exasperated by the

creation
of=
the 18/21 class of glider. These gliders now overlap in 18m and

open.


In the US this is made worse by the distances required to drive to

a
contes=
t. A multi class glider means you don't have to drive as far to

compete. =
=20

The bottom line is those buying a new glider are going to buy a

15/18m or
1=
8/21m glider. The demand for a straight 15m is going to fall. The

FAI
mott=
o is "We never met a class of glider we won't create a new class

for". At
=
the same time it continues to price pilots out of the game and

reduces
numb=
er of people participating in the sport.

And for those of us who can't afford to buy a new $150K competitive
glider, we are left with the handicapped classes where one can still
be competitive with an older and much less expensive glider.
Standard class is handicapped, but limited to only Standard class
gliders, whereas Sports and Club classes have broader ranges of
gliders allowed. Having 3 handicapped nationals per year allows the
contests to also be geographically spread out, which cuts down on
travel time and expenses too. So that is where you will find the
pilots (out of this ever shrinking pool) who want to compete but
can't afford the minimum $150K entry price in Open, 18m & 15m...
Of course this kind of "racing" won't sit well with the "purists" who
just want to go "head to head" with other pilots, but I suppose that
those folks could also go race 1-26's for a cheap one design class...
I am staying with my STD class glider because I can fly STD, Sports,
and Club classes with it, and be competitive in any of them...
RO

  #37  
Old August 13th 17, 04:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 9
Default ASW27B prices falling

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 5:55:14 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:

A well prepped -20B works well in "heavy conditions."


I love my '20. I can out climb any other glider in the sky in small weak thermals.

Guy Byars

  #38  
Old August 14th 17, 09:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 268
Default ASW27B prices falling

On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.


I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.
  #39  
Old August 14th 17, 02:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Posts: 365
Default ASW27B prices falling

On Monday, 14 August 2017 02:28:47 UTC-6, krasw wrote:
On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.


I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.


This paragraph was posted on the Schempp-Hirth FB page

"Apart from it being a tradition, we celebrated the deliveries of both the 700th Duo Discus, the 250 Arcus (see below) and, in a few weeks, the upcoming deliveries of the 200th Discus-2c and the very last produced Ventus-2."

If they are not producing the V2 anymore and the "New Ventus" is currently only 18M what does that say about the or their view of the future?

https://www.facebook.com/schempphirth/

Ron Gleason
  #40  
Old August 14th 17, 02:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Juanman[_2_]
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Posts: 18
Default ASW27B prices falling

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 9:50:51 AM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Monday, 14 August 2017 02:28:47 UTC-6, krasw wrote:
On Sunday, 13 August 2017 04:04:20 UTC+3, Tim Taylor wrote:
The balance shifted in about 2015 with more of the pilots moving to the 15/18m gliders rather than straight 15m.


I bet you can count straight 15m gliders manufactured after 2005 with your 10 fingers.


This paragraph was posted on the Schempp-Hirth FB page

"Apart from it being a tradition, we celebrated the deliveries of both the 700th Duo Discus, the 250 Arcus (see below) and, in a few weeks, the upcoming deliveries of the 200th Discus-2c and the very last produced Ventus-2."

If they are not producing the V2 anymore and the "New Ventus" is currently only 18M what does that say about the or their view of the future?

https://www.facebook.com/schempphirth/

Ron Gleason


There will surely be 15m tips for the V3.
 




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