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Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 23rd 08, 02:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,130
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

On Jun 22, 6:39 pm, "RST Engineering" wrote:
An 11AC with a possible
busted spar isn't a bargain at giveaway prices, much less the asking price.


I would expect to replace those spars anyway. The AD 2000-25-02R1
addresses the tendency of Aeronca spars to crack through the rib nail
holes as the wood dries out and shrinks across the grain while the
metal ribs try to prevent it, splitting the spars along the grain. The
plywood doublers at the spar attach points cause local stiffness that
forces the wood at the top of the spar at the ends of the doublers to
suffer compression fractures which extend down through the spar. The
plywood doubles at the spar butts cover cracks through the spar
itself, and perhaps those doublers are contributing to stress cracking
in the same way as the metal ribs.
See this: http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/ce...rt/2001-05.htm
Re-sparring isn't cheap, and those aluminum ribs are often
corroded, too. American Champion sells brand-new all-metal wings with
or without the fabric. They aren't cheap, either.

Dan



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  #12  
Old June 23rd 08, 03:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
RST Engineering
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Posts: 1,147
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

Dan ...

I maintain on an inspection basis a few 11ACs. I have yet to see one with
that AD spar cracking problem. It was reported a few times to Ok City under
their wonderful "tell us about your problems" program and (I'm wild ass
guessing here) some wet behind the ears history major puke that couldn't
tell a cotter pin from a diaper pin picked up on it and made it an AD. It
is, as far as I can tell, not a "tendency" but an abberation that a few of
the Airnockers have suffered. Not a widespread problem.

On the other hand, a few years ago, I inspected airplane after airplane with
cracked spars. Upon investigation, I found that I had a cracked inspection
mirror {;-)


Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle


wrote in message
...
On Jun 22, 6:39 pm, "RST Engineering" wrote:
An 11AC with a possible
busted spar isn't a bargain at giveaway prices, much less the asking
price.


I would expect to replace those spars anyway. The AD 2000-25-02R1
addresses the tendency of Aeronca spars to crack through the rib nail
holes as the wood dries out and shrinks across the grain while the
metal ribs try to prevent it, splitting the spars along the grain. The
plywood doublers at the spar attach points cause local stiffness that
forces the wood at the top of the spar at the ends of the doublers to
suffer compression fractures which extend down through the spar. The
plywood doubles at the spar butts cover cracks through the spar
itself, and perhaps those doublers are contributing to stress cracking
in the same way as the metal ribs.
See this:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/ce...rt/2001-05.htm
Re-sparring isn't cheap, and those aluminum ribs are often
corroded, too. American Champion sells brand-new all-metal wings with
or without the fabric. They aren't cheap, either.

Dan





  #13  
Old June 23rd 08, 03:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Sallie
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Posts: 5
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT), Victor Bravo
wrote:

On Jun 21, 8:59 am, "RST Engineering" wrote:
Wow, there's a hell of a deal. "Welding done" implies that the fuselage was
severely tweaked, and busted up so bad it needs an engine, struts and
"possibly" spars. Not a hell of a lot of paperwork. Sounds like it was
"groundlooped" into a bridge abutment.

I'll bet you've got 'em standing in line for this one, eh Berle?

Jim


You really are a putz, Mr. Weir.


Bill, so you're telling us something new?



  #14  
Old June 23rd 08, 03:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Darrel Toepfer
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Posts: 289
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

"RST Engineering" wrote:

Dan ...

I maintain on an inspection basis a few 11ACs. I have yet to see one
with that AD spar cracking problem.


One here had to have it replaced, cost was $5k+ as I remember for the
hardware alone. That didn't include the recovering, repainting, reassembly,
IA/AP inspections, etc...

Oh yeah that was 5 years ago and it still ain't airworthy...

Honestly, he probably has pictures, if you wanna see what one looks like...
  #15  
Old June 23rd 08, 03:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Sallie
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Posts: 5
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:41:03 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

Perhaps so. I failed to include the whole sig.

Jim
A&P, IA
2500 hours in taildraggers without a groundloop.
45 years in the airplane fixin' business.


Oh, that makes a difference!

If you want to challenge me to a duel with words, I think you'd better
bring some more class, brains, and aviation experience to the game.
This is not a debate about Ohm's Law, you might be out of your depth.

Bill Berle



  #16  
Old June 23rd 08, 03:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Morgans[_2_]
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Posts: 3,924
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS


"RST Engineering" wrote

On the other hand, a few years ago, I inspected airplane after airplane
with cracked spars. Upon investigation, I found that I had a cracked
inspection mirror {;-)



Guffaw ! ! !

That really cracks me up, Jim! G

I wonder if I get one of those right hand mirrors off of a car (that say
objects in the mirror may look larger than they are) to look at C-150, it
will turn into a C-182? :-)
--
Jim in NC


  #17  
Old June 23rd 08, 07:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Victor Bravo
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Posts: 89
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

OK, since we're soaring through the intellectual stratosphere here, my
reasoning for putting it in both newsgroups is that the homebuilt
types are builders more than just talkers. Builders are somewhat more
likely to be interested in a rebuild project. Considering some of the
non-aviation nonsense that has been offered on the usenet groups,
offering an airplane project in need of a rebuild is not that far of a
stretch.

How would you know that anything I have offered here is a sow's ear ?
There's that ESP again, from one of the self-appointed PC police of
the newsgroup world. If you're not interested in what I am selling
then just delete the message from your computer and don't speak for
anyone else. I happen to horse trade and peddle flying airplanes,
projects, parts, and anything else in aviation I can get my hands on.
Sometimes it's for trading back and forth to get something I want,
other times it's to pay the rent. What's it to you? Who appointed you
to office?

I'm very familiar with your personality type. Your stuff for sale is
gold plated and everyone else's is crap. Anything you think is
valuable is stupendously important, anyone who disagrees is
misinformed. I used to deal with a guy on this newsgroup who had that
attitude, called himself Captain Zoom.

Anyone want to make a wager as to how historically important or
desirable Mr. Weir would position an old tired Chief rebuild project
for sale if it was HIS? Anyone want to bet on how valuable it would be
if it were HIS? Anyone want to guess how much he charges for his time
at the same time as berating anyone else who charges the same amount?

Let's not even talk about your reputation for "abusing newsgroups" by
bullying, endless arguing, and shoving your opinions down everyone's
throat.

The days of five hundred dollar old airplane projects are gone Jim.
They went the same way as $2 avgas, $2 sectional charts, and $25 an
hour for a Cessna 150 rental. You may be right, it may take ten
thousand bucks and months of someone's time to have this Chief
restored. Now with that in mind... look at what a nice Chief is going
for. Look what Cub projects, T-craft projects, and any other classic
projects are listed for.

An 11AC groundloop project with a possibly busted spar... Jim how much
would YOU be offering it for if it was yours? 45 years in the airplane
fixing business... what do YOU charge for a project airplane that you
are not fixing... a grand?

The welding is in fact not 90% completed. My error. It is about half
completed. The owner stopped having the project worked on when he
decided to buy something else. Does that create some mystery or sticky
question in your mind?

On Jun 22, 5:39 pm, "RST Engineering" wrote:
Jim ...

In the first place, this thread belongs in rec.aviation.marketplace. It is
NOT a homebuilt and it is off-topic. I didn't say anything about that.

In the second place, this fellow has a history of abusing this newsgroup
trying to peddle sows' ears at silk purse prices. An 11AC with a possible
busted spar isn't a bargain at giveaway prices, much less the asking price.

So, we have to come up with an engine, some more welding (or re-welding,
depending as you say on the quality, and a question in the back of my mind
as to how the "90% complete" number came to be and why the last 10% hasn't
been done), either a lot of woodwork or a hell of a lot of woodwork
depending, struts, and a complete fabric cover. Plus a lot of bits and
pieces to hold it all together. Would'ja say, roughly, $15k in work?
That's my best estimate, figuring that the spar is a 50-50 proposition.
Somewhere between $12 and $18?

Jim



  #18  
Old June 23rd 08, 07:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Victor Bravo
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Posts: 89
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

On Jun 22, 4:20 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

The ONE I'm aware of had bolts not properly installed.
The other one, the wings were torn off when a couple of
drug-compromized idiots put it into a dive or something that GREATLY
exceeded VNE and tried to pull it out, or something like that.
The Aeronca Champ would have suffered the same fate in both cases.



I'm a very strong supporter of Chris Heintz, I have CH701 plans and
parts I will someday build on, and I am aware the Heintz is a very
highly accredited designer. However, the earlier 601 aircraft do not
have these problems, and the 601XL was a version that they had to work
very hard to get into the LSA weight class. The XL skins and
structure is not nearly as over-built on this airplane as is normal in
the light aircraft world. You cannot simply blame this on drug-crazed
hippies. An Aeronca Champ flown in turbulence, or over redline speed
would not suffer the same fate. It is a more rigid aircraft with
higher structural margins in my opinion. You can walk up to a CH601
and move the tip of the horizontal stabilizer fore and aft a very
disturbing amount (I have on three separate aircraft). The loads are
SUPPOSED to be symmetrical, so it SHOULD not be an issue, but the
structure is very light and can be moved far more than a Champ.
  #19  
Old June 23rd 08, 08:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Ron Wanttaja
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Posts: 756
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:20:26 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT), Victor Bravo
wrote:


Have a look at the Zenair 601XL, where an airframe KIT costs you $20K.
Now look at the unfortunate and tragic problems the 601 is having with
the wings folding in flight, and compare it to an airplane with a 60
year safety record, full commercial FAA certification, and tell me
that this is not a reasonable bargain.


Wings folding in flight??
New one on me. The ONE I'm aware of had bolts not properly installed.


Hmmmm. I presume this one is NTSB # LAX06LA105, but the online report says,
"Eleven of the main spar attach bolts were found in their normal position and
remained connected by their respective retaining nuts and washers. Recovery
personnel had disassembled the twelfth bolt during retrieval of the airplane."
Nothing mentioned about improper assembly.

The other one, the wings were torn off when a couple of
drug-compromized idiots put it into a dive or something that GREATLY
exceeded VNE and tried to pull it out, or something like that.
The Aeronca Champ would have suffered the same fate in both cases.


DFW07LA102 combined wing failure with the detection of some prescription meds in
the organs of the sole occupant...doesn't sound like the one you're referring
to. Was it a foreign crash?

In any case, I think the Fly Baby has the Zenair 601 beat. Out of 51 Fly Baby
crashes, 13 involved wing failure.

Ron Wanttaja
  #20  
Old June 23rd 08, 06:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.marketplace,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Jim Logajan
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Posts: 1,958
Default Aeronca 11AC Chief Project FS

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:20:26 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot
canada wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT), Victor Bravo
wrote:


Have a look at the Zenair 601XL, where an airframe KIT costs you
$20K. Now look at the unfortunate and tragic problems the 601 is
having with the wings folding in flight, and compare it to an
airplane with a 60 year safety record, full commercial FAA
certification, and tell me that this is not a reasonable bargain.


Wings folding in flight??
New one on me. The ONE I'm aware of had bolts not properly installed.


Hmmmm. I presume this one is NTSB # LAX06LA105, but the online report
says, "Eleven of the main spar attach bolts were found in their normal
position and remained connected by their respective retaining nuts and
washers. Recovery personnel had disassembled the twelfth bolt during
retrieval of the airplane." Nothing mentioned about improper assembly.

The other one, the wings were torn off when a couple of
drug-compromized idiots put it into a dive or something that GREATLY
exceeded VNE and tried to pull it out, or something like that.
The Aeronca Champ would have suffered the same fate in both cases.


DFW07LA102 combined wing failure with the detection of some
prescription meds in the organs of the sole occupant...doesn't sound
like the one you're referring to. Was it a foreign crash?


I may be mistaken, but I suspect that clare may be mis-remembering a CH-801
accident as one involving a CH-601. The following "drug-compromised
idiots" accident may be the mistaken one:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X00321&key=1

I found it notable for the simple fact that it is the only CH-801 fatal
accident I could find in the NTSB database.
 




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