Good first partnership or not? 1/6th Cherokee 140 Share in CA

Hi r.a.o guys,
Thru a local ad I found a 1/6th share in a 1969 Cherokee 140
(hershey bar wing). I've done some minimal due diligance on it and it
looks, well, like an old 1969 rental. The nose-wheel cowling is pretty
worn (looks like it's been glued several times) and the paint is
original & drab. The avionics are basic: 2 working VORs, 1 with
glideslope, but it is IFR (certified the correct term?)
The engine has a few hundred hours left and there is approx $6K
saved towards maintenance (the club intentionally doesn't charge
hourly for overhaul).

Here's the cost breakdown:
Buy-In $5,500
Hourly Tach (dry) $10
Fixed Costs - collected quarterly, average $150/owner/qtr +
eventual overhaul

Scheduling is done online, and I hear that only 3/6 partners fly
often and the other 2/6 hardly ever fly. That leaves me:

I want to save money & fly as much as possible, building XC time
before starting IFR training (eventually) and just have fun. The local
"popular" club is west valley www.wvfc.org, and their rates are around
$50/mo fixed + $90-$110/hr for a cherokee/c172. I've only flown
cessna's until now, but really liked the low-wing feel of the diamond
katana.

The plane seems like a near ideal match. I want to fly from
PAO/SQL to places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, Monterey, Mendocino,
Las Vegas - i.e. the west coast mostly... and only then after I build
up some shorter XC confidence... It seems like a good deal, but how
much could a Cherokee 140 overhaul *burn* my pocket? We're going for a
test flight this weekend & that will also help the decision...

Thanks for your advice,
Noah

I spent $19K on a firewall forward (well, while it's apart.................)
on my 1966 Cherokee 140.


"noah" wrote in message
om...
Hi r.a.o guys,
Thru a local ad I found a 1/6th share in a 1969 Cherokee 140
(hershey bar wing). I've done some minimal due diligance on it and it
looks, well, like an old 1969 rental. The nose-wheel cowling is pretty
worn (looks like it's been glued several times) and the paint is
original & drab. The avionics are basic: 2 working VORs, 1 with
glideslope, but it is IFR (certified the correct term?)
The engine has a few hundred hours left and there is approx $6K
saved towards maintenance (the club intentionally doesn't charge
hourly for overhaul).

Here's the cost breakdown:
Buy-In $5,500
Hourly Tach (dry) $10
Fixed Costs - collected quarterly, average $150/owner/qtr +
eventual overhaul

Scheduling is done online, and I hear that only 3/6 partners fly
often and the other 2/6 hardly ever fly. That leaves me:

I want to save money & fly as much as possible, building XC time
before starting IFR training (eventually) and just have fun. The local
"popular" club is west valley www.wvfc.org, and their rates are around
$50/mo fixed + $90-$110/hr for a cherokee/c172. I've only flown
cessna's until now, but really liked the low-wing feel of the diamond
katana.

The plane seems like a near ideal match. I want to fly from
PAO/SQL to places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, Monterey, Mendocino,
Las Vegas - i.e. the west coast mostly... and only then after I build
up some shorter XC confidence... It seems like a good deal, but how
much could a Cherokee 140 overhaul *burn* my pocket? We're going for a
test flight this weekend & that will also help the decision...

Thanks for your advice,
Noah

6 partners is a lot, even of you are the ONLY one actually flying the plane.
I would be very suspicious unless the agreement covers almost any possible
decision. If there is not enough for overhaul, what will happen if the guys
who are not flying much want to go cheap or sell the plane to avoid the
expense?

Also, it will get tougher to sell your share as it gets closer to overhaul.
Just about the time you want to move up, you may be stuck waiting for the
group to get the overhaul done. It could take a while as folks argue and
drag feet.


"noah" wrote in message
om...
Hi r.a.o guys,
Thru a local ad I found a 1/6th share in a 1969 Cherokee 140
(hershey bar wing). I've done some minimal due diligance on it and it
looks, well, like an old 1969 rental. The nose-wheel cowling is pretty
worn (looks like it's been glued several times) and the paint is
original & drab. The avionics are basic: 2 working VORs, 1 with
glideslope, but it is IFR (certified the correct term?)
The engine has a few hundred hours left and there is approx $6K
saved towards maintenance (the club intentionally doesn't charge
hourly for overhaul).

Here's the cost breakdown:
Buy-In $5,500
Hourly Tach (dry) $10
Fixed Costs - collected quarterly, average $150/owner/qtr +
eventual overhaul

Scheduling is done online, and I hear that only 3/6 partners fly
often and the other 2/6 hardly ever fly. That leaves me:

I want to save money & fly as much as possible, building XC time
before starting IFR training (eventually) and just have fun. The local
"popular" club is west valley www.wvfc.org, and their rates are around
$50/mo fixed + $90-$110/hr for a cherokee/c172. I've only flown
cessna's until now, but really liked the low-wing feel of the diamond
katana.

The plane seems like a near ideal match. I want to fly from
PAO/SQL to places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, Monterey, Mendocino,
Las Vegas - i.e. the west coast mostly... and only then after I build
up some shorter XC confidence... It seems like a good deal, but how
much could a Cherokee 140 overhaul *burn* my pocket? We're going for a
test flight this weekend & that will also help the decision...

Thanks for your advice,
Noah

Sounds like a good first partnership. An inexpensive plane, and risk is
split among six people. You aren't risking very much money, so the worst
that could happen is you lose your initial investment, or sell at a loss
because it turns out to be a hunk of junk. That would still be a relatively
cheap introduction into the school of airplane hard knocks. More likely,
you do some good flying, learn about maintenance bills, and eventually
outgrow the plane or get ****ed off at competing for air time and sell out
at darn near what you paid into it.

Six partners is good because when you do get that huge overhaul bill, it
will taste a lot less bitter split 6 ways. An $18K major engine overhaul is
a kick in the balls. But paying $3K to know you are flying an airplane with
a nice new engine is a bargain.

Don't assume you're going to get those few hundred hours. The engine could
start making metal or fail a compression test at any time. TBO is just a
prediction. The good news is, with 6 partners you can afford a top-notch
rebuild instead of a backyard job. The other poster gave you good advice
to make sure the partners agree and are prepared to foot the bill when the
time comes.

The one thing I would worry about is maintenance. An old clunker like that
may be solid and just look dowdy, or it could have some serious problems
that have been deferred. I'd get an unbiased A&P to inspect it carefully.
Not for valuation purposes, but to assure you that you are flying a
mechanically sound aircraft.

"noah" wrote in message
om...
Hi r.a.o guys,
Thru a local ad I found a 1/6th share in a 1969 Cherokee 140
(hershey bar wing). I've done some minimal due diligance on it and it
looks, well, like an old 1969 rental. The nose-wheel cowling is pretty
worn (looks like it's been glued several times) and the paint is
original & drab. The avionics are basic: 2 working VORs, 1 with
glideslope, but it is IFR (certified the correct term?)
The engine has a few hundred hours left and there is approx $6K
saved towards maintenance (the club intentionally doesn't charge
hourly for overhaul).

Here's the cost breakdown:
Buy-In $5,500
Hourly Tach (dry) $10
Fixed Costs - collected quarterly, average $150/owner/qtr +
eventual overhaul

Scheduling is done online, and I hear that only 3/6 partners fly
often and the other 2/6 hardly ever fly. That leaves me:

I want to save money & fly as much as possible, building XC time
before starting IFR training (eventually) and just have fun. The local
"popular" club is west valley www.wvfc.org, and their rates are around
$50/mo fixed + $90-$110/hr for a cherokee/c172. I've only flown
cessna's until now, but really liked the low-wing feel of the diamond
katana.

The plane seems like a near ideal match. I want to fly from
PAO/SQL to places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, Monterey, Mendocino,
Las Vegas - i.e. the west coast mostly... and only then after I build
up some shorter XC confidence... It seems like a good deal, but how
much could a Cherokee 140 overhaul *burn* my pocket? We're going for a
test flight this weekend & that will also help the decision...

Thanks for your advice,
Noah

Estimates from 3 reputable overhaul companies for a O-360-A4A run
between $13-15K. That includes everything firewall forward.
I would guess the O-320 would be less.

Contact a few shops and get ballpark figures.

Some very sound advice so far.
I personally couldn't stand having to wait when I wanted the airplane. When
the sky is clear on the weekend, everybody wants to fly.

"Ed Haywood" wrote in message
news
Sounds like a good first partnership. An inexpensive plane, and risk is
split among six people. You aren't risking very much money, so the worst
that could happen is you lose your initial investment, or sell at a loss
because it turns out to be a hunk of junk. That would still be a
relatively
cheap introduction into the school of airplane hard knocks. More likely,
you do some good flying, learn about maintenance bills, and eventually
outgrow the plane or get ****ed off at competing for air time and sell out
at darn near what you paid into it.

Six partners is good because when you do get that huge overhaul bill, it
will taste a lot less bitter split 6 ways. An $18K major engine overhaul
is
a kick in the balls. But paying $3K to know you are flying an airplane
with
a nice new engine is a bargain.

Don't assume you're going to get those few hundred hours. The engine
could
start making metal or fail a compression test at any time. TBO is just a
prediction. The good news is, with 6 partners you can afford a top-notch
rebuild instead of a backyard job. The other poster gave you good advice
to make sure the partners agree and are prepared to foot the bill when the
time comes.

The one thing I would worry about is maintenance. An old clunker like
that
may be solid and just look dowdy, or it could have some serious problems
that have been deferred. I'd get an unbiased A&P to inspect it carefully.
Not for valuation purposes, but to assure you that you are flying a
mechanically sound aircraft.

"noah" wrote in message
om...
Hi r.a.o guys,
Thru a local ad I found a 1/6th share in a 1969 Cherokee 140
(hershey bar wing). I've done some minimal due diligance on it and it
looks, well, like an old 1969 rental. The nose-wheel cowling is pretty
worn (looks like it's been glued several times) and the paint is
original & drab. The avionics are basic: 2 working VORs, 1 with
glideslope, but it is IFR (certified the correct term?)
The engine has a few hundred hours left and there is approx $6K
saved towards maintenance (the club intentionally doesn't charge
hourly for overhaul).

Here's the cost breakdown:
Buy-In $5,500
Hourly Tach (dry) $10
Fixed Costs - collected quarterly, average $150/owner/qtr +
eventual overhaul

Scheduling is done online, and I hear that only 3/6 partners fly
often and the other 2/6 hardly ever fly. That leaves me:

I want to save money & fly as much as possible, building XC time
before starting IFR training (eventually) and just have fun. The local
"popular" club is west valley www.wvfc.org, and their rates are around
$50/mo fixed + $90-$110/hr for a cherokee/c172. I've only flown
cessna's until now, but really liked the low-wing feel of the diamond
katana.

The plane seems like a near ideal match. I want to fly from
PAO/SQL to places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, Monterey, Mendocino,
Las Vegas - i.e. the west coast mostly... and only then after I build
up some shorter XC confidence... It seems like a good deal, but how
much could a Cherokee 140 overhaul *burn* my pocket? We're going for a
test flight this weekend & that will also help the decision...

Thanks for your advice,
Noah

An overhaul company doesn't do the prop, mount and baffels.

Mattituck charged $11,700 for the overhaul in 2000. The rest was for my
peace of mind.


"Blanche" wrote in message
...
Estimates from 3 reputable overhaul companies for a O-360-A4A run
between $13-15K. That includes everything firewall forward.
I would guess the O-320 would be less.

Contact a few shops and get ballpark figures.

Not exactly, the partnership agreement could leave him paying the monthly
amount ad infinitum while the plane rots.

He could lose a LOT MORE than the original investment in many ways.
Seriously, 6 partners? Have you ever gotten 6 people to agree on lunch?



"Ed Haywood" wrote in message
news
Sounds like a good first partnership. An inexpensive plane, and risk is
split among six people. You aren't risking very much money, so the worst
that could happen is you lose your initial investment, or sell at a loss
because it turns out to be a hunk of junk. That would still be a
relatively
cheap introduction into the school of airplane hard knocks. More likely,
you do some good flying, learn about maintenance bills, and eventually
outgrow the plane or get ****ed off at competing for air time and sell out
at darn near what you paid into it.

Six partners is good because when you do get that huge overhaul bill, it
will taste a lot less bitter split 6 ways. An $18K major engine overhaul
is
a kick in the balls. But paying $3K to know you are flying an airplane
with
a nice new engine is a bargain.

Don't assume you're going to get those few hundred hours. The engine
could
start making metal or fail a compression test at any time. TBO is just a
prediction. The good news is, with 6 partners you can afford a top-notch
rebuild instead of a backyard job. The other poster gave you good advice
to make sure the partners agree and are prepared to foot the bill when the
time comes.

The one thing I would worry about is maintenance. An old clunker like
that
may be solid and just look dowdy, or it could have some serious problems
that have been deferred. I'd get an unbiased A&P to inspect it carefully.
Not for valuation purposes, but to assure you that you are flying a
mechanically sound aircraft.

"noah" wrote in message
om...
Hi r.a.o guys,
Thru a local ad I found a 1/6th share in a 1969 Cherokee 140
(hershey bar wing). I've done some minimal due diligance on it and it
looks, well, like an old 1969 rental. The nose-wheel cowling is pretty
worn (looks like it's been glued several times) and the paint is
original & drab. The avionics are basic: 2 working VORs, 1 with
glideslope, but it is IFR (certified the correct term?)
The engine has a few hundred hours left and there is approx $6K
saved towards maintenance (the club intentionally doesn't charge
hourly for overhaul).

Here's the cost breakdown:
Buy-In $5,500
Hourly Tach (dry) $10
Fixed Costs - collected quarterly, average $150/owner/qtr +
eventual overhaul

Scheduling is done online, and I hear that only 3/6 partners fly
often and the other 2/6 hardly ever fly. That leaves me:

I want to save money & fly as much as possible, building XC time
before starting IFR training (eventually) and just have fun. The local
"popular" club is west valley www.wvfc.org, and their rates are around
$50/mo fixed + $90-$110/hr for a cherokee/c172. I've only flown
cessna's until now, but really liked the low-wing feel of the diamond
katana.

The plane seems like a near ideal match. I want to fly from
PAO/SQL to places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, Monterey, Mendocino,
Las Vegas - i.e. the west coast mostly... and only then after I build
up some shorter XC confidence... It seems like a good deal, but how
much could a Cherokee 140 overhaul *burn* my pocket? We're going for a
test flight this weekend & that will also help the decision...

Thanks for your advice,
Noah

"noah" wrote in message
om...
Hi r.a.o guys,
Thru a local ad I found a 1/6th share in a 1969 Cherokee 140
(hershey bar wing). I've done some minimal due diligance on it and it
looks, well, like an old 1969 rental. The nose-wheel cowling is pretty
worn (looks like it's been glued several times) and the paint is
original & drab. The avionics are basic: 2 working VORs, 1 with
glideslope, but it is IFR (certified the correct term?)
The engine has a few hundred hours left and there is approx $6K
saved towards maintenance (the club intentionally doesn't charge
hourly for overhaul).

Here's the cost breakdown:
Buy-In $5,500
Hourly Tach (dry) $10
Fixed Costs - collected quarterly, average $150/owner/qtr +
eventual overhaul

Scheduling is done online, and I hear that only 3/6 partners fly
often and the other 2/6 hardly ever fly. That leaves me:

I want to save money & fly as much as possible, building XC time
before starting IFR training (eventually) and just have fun. The local
"popular" club is west valley www.wvfc.org, and their rates are around
$50/mo fixed + $90-$110/hr for a cherokee/c172. I've only flown
cessna's until now, but really liked the low-wing feel of the diamond
katana.

The plane seems like a near ideal match. I want to fly from
PAO/SQL to places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, Monterey, Mendocino,
Las Vegas - i.e. the west coast mostly... and only then after I build
up some shorter XC confidence... It seems like a good deal, but how
much could a Cherokee 140 overhaul *burn* my pocket? We're going for a
test flight this weekend & that will also help the decision...

Thanks for your advice,
Noah

Lemme see if I got this straight.

There's a group of six people (minus 1) that owns a well worn Cherokee with
parts that been glued several times, old drab paint and basic radios. These
same six people save $3600/yr for repairs, annuals and overhauls. There is
only a "few hundred hours left" on the motor and only $6000 in the kitty.

At this rate, it would take another 5 or 6 years to be able to afford an
overhaul. That's ok if these six people only fly about 50 hours a year
combined. Unless of course these six people want to pay out of their own
pocket to get it ovehauled quicker. Then again, these same six people
didn't want to cough up the cash for paint or other upgrades to stop it from
looking like an "old 1969 rental".

First thing I would do is talk to the 1/6 that is no longer a partner and
ask him why he wanted out. If there wasn't a sixth person I'd ask why five
people need another one to afford a Cherokee. Then, regardless of their
answers, I'd walk away and look for something else.

Two people could afford to own a Cherokee 140 and keep it going. Three
people gets you top notch maintenence and repairs. Four gets you a like new
plane. Five or more gets you bickering and a hangar queen. Or an old 1969
rental. :-)

New rule: An airplane should never have more partners than seats.

Dude wrote:
6 partners is a lot, even of you are the ONLY one actually flying the plane.
I would be very suspicious unless the agreement covers almost any possible
decision. If there is not enough for overhaul, what will happen if the guys
who are not flying much want to go cheap or sell the plane to avoid the
expense?

Also, it will get tougher to sell your share as it gets closer to overhaul.
Just about the time you want to move up, you may be stuck waiting for the
group to get the overhaul done. It could take a while as folks argue and
drag feet.

I guess today's my day to agree with whatever Dude says.

I'd feel a lot better about it if the cash on hand were more closely aligned
with the required overhaul reserve.

Getting 6 partners to agree on the best way to spend a few tens of thousands of
dollars on an overhaul is going to be difficult. Even worse, the partners have
disparate views of the plane and how to use it. I'd feel better if they all flew
it a lot, or nobody flew it much.

I'm not saying don't do it, just think about the above and factor that into the
cost. If you think it's a good enough deal, and you can live with arm-wrestling
6 partners to get things done, go for it.

Dave
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