VG's on Warrior?

On 6 Nov 2005 21:07:02 -0800, "Ben Hallert"
wrote:

OK, after a lot of research, we are looking at installing AMR&D's
Vortex Generators on our Warrior..
Anybody out there with expirence with these?

Why did you decide you wanted to do this?

I'll go out on a limb and guess it's because of one of these stated
benefits from pipermods.com:
" # LOWER STALL 5 mph
# IMPROVE LOW SPEED HANDLING
# IMPROVE SHORT FIELD PERFORMANCE
# IMPROVE PERFORMANCE AT GROSS WEIGHT
# IMPROVE CRUISE 3 - 7 mph
# INCREASE IN TOP SPEED"

If you're familiar with the reasons someone might want to buy them
(considering your past posts, I know you are) but have knowledge about
why it would be a bad idea or doesn't do what it claims, then, with
respect, why be a jerk about it? Just tell us why it's dumb already
without stringing us along. I'm hoping to buy a Warrior II soon
myself, and I'm studying all the mods to see what flies and what dies.

Thanks!

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL


Sorry you felt I was being a jerk. On the contrary I was looking to
learn something. I definitely have my opinions on VGs but have never
heard of anyone putting them on a Cherokee. With a big, fat, short
wing I was interested to see what it would do for the airfoil from
personal experience of others. Luckily others responded in a way that
provided me greater knowledge (thanks).

In case you missed the posts, it looks like for a Warrior II they
won't help much because Piper had already "fixed" the wing to some
degree so they might not benefit you. In my opinion, flap gap and
aileron seals would be where'd I'd put my money first. They should
lower the stall speed, increase low speed handling, and provide a
slightly higher cruise (2-3 kts); and I wouldn't have funny looking
things stuck all over my wings that would fall off over time.

Having said that, I'm also familiar with the wing root problems on
older Cherokees (which is what I own). It sounds like VGs could help
that somewhat so some additional investigation may be warranted.

Is it possible to put like 4 or 5 on each side, just to compensate for
the turbulent air at the wing root?

Thanks to those contributing to this thread.
z

Hi Z!

To clarify.

There are only 4 per side, between the fuel tank and the fuselage,
maybe one more.. (from the pictures)

Piper fixed the outer (tapered) portion of the wing, but the inner
portion is "plain old Cherokee" (on a Warrior)

Dave


On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:07:18 -0500, zatatime wrote:

On 6 Nov 2005 21:07:02 -0800, "Ben Hallert"
wrote:

OK, after a lot of research, we are looking at installing AMR&D's
Vortex Generators on our Warrior..
Anybody out there with expirence with these?

Why did you decide you wanted to do this?

I'll go out on a limb and guess it's because of one of these stated
benefits from pipermods.com:
" # LOWER STALL 5 mph
# IMPROVE LOW SPEED HANDLING
# IMPROVE SHORT FIELD PERFORMANCE
# IMPROVE PERFORMANCE AT GROSS WEIGHT
# IMPROVE CRUISE 3 - 7 mph
# INCREASE IN TOP SPEED"

If you're familiar with the reasons someone might want to buy them
(considering your past posts, I know you are) but have knowledge about
why it would be a bad idea or doesn't do what it claims, then, with
respect, why be a jerk about it? Just tell us why it's dumb already
without stringing us along. I'm hoping to buy a Warrior II soon
myself, and I'm studying all the mods to see what flies and what dies.

Thanks!

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL


Sorry you felt I was being a jerk. On the contrary I was looking to
learn something. I definitely have my opinions on VGs but have never
heard of anyone putting them on a Cherokee. With a big, fat, short
wing I was interested to see what it would do for the airfoil from
personal experience of others. Luckily others responded in a way that
provided me greater knowledge (thanks).

In case you missed the posts, it looks like for a Warrior II they
won't help much because Piper had already "fixed" the wing to some
degree so they might not benefit you. In my opinion, flap gap and
aileron seals would be where'd I'd put my money first. They should
lower the stall speed, increase low speed handling, and provide a
slightly higher cruise (2-3 kts); and I wouldn't have funny looking
things stuck all over my wings that would fall off over time.

Having said that, I'm also familiar with the wing root problems on
older Cherokees (which is what I own). It sounds like VGs could help
that somewhat so some additional investigation may be warranted.

Is it possible to put like 4 or 5 on each side, just to compensate for
the turbulent air at the wing root?

Thanks to those contributing to this thread.
z

Why VG's?

Well..

Lets call it "Margin"..

It appears from all reports, I "might" go a little faster (2 Knts),
"will" stall slower (5 knts) - (I will settle for a couple.)
decreased sink/increased climb, (150 fpm, I will be happy with 75.)

Shorter landing roll, shorter takeoff run and climb to alt over
obsts.

They are CHEAP!

And there is a significant performance increase with them from what
I have investigated, if I get 30% of what some tell me they are
getting, I happy..

So... margin. - a little faster when needed, a little slower when
needed, a little shorter when needed, a little higher when needed, a
little farther when needed, a little better when loaded.

Maybe a little bit more of what I need when I need it really badly..

Worth the investment when needed.

And If I can duplicate a take off I have seen on video of a VG
equipped Cherokee,- he was over a 50 ft obst. while I would be
struggling for daylight.... Our warrior is no superstar, but it
"meets the numbers"

Seems like a lot for a few hundred bucks...maybe worth taking a chance
on...

Thanks to all for the thread of info...

Dave


On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 21:56:16 -0500, zatatime wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 20:05:50 -0400, Dave
wrote:

OK, after a lot of research, we are looking at installing AMR&D's
Vortex Generators on our Warrior..

Anybody out there with expirence with these?

Dave


Why did you decide you wanted to do this?

z

: Seems like a lot for a few hundred bucks...maybe worth taking a chance
: on...

: Thanks to all for the thread of info...

: Dave

As I said, my personal experience on three different 160 or 180 hp's
stubby-winged Cherokees is consistent... they help a lot more than one would think at
the low end. Nothing substantial at the high speed end.

One other detail. I believe that AM said that they are NOT approved for stock
wintips. He said some aftermarked tips were necessary... whether it be hoerner style
or droop-tip... doesn't matter. They do the same (although the droop-tips on my bird
look a bit silly. Make it look like the "bat-plane"). Stock tips on the Hershey-bar
cherokees are awful from what he said.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

As I said, my personal experience on three different 160 or 180 hp's
stubby-winged Cherokees is consistent... they help a lot more than one
would think at
the low end. Nothing substantial at the high speed end.

One thing no one has mentioned: Art Mattson's VGs are bigger than most.

Although there are fewer of them than on most applications I've seen, they
look wickedly dangerous to me. (As in sharp.) Cleaning around them has got
to be a real pain, especially if you slip and slice your wrist on one of
them.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Hi Cory!

I called Art today for just that clarification..(the clearest
and fastest water is usually at the head of the stream)

Better wingtips are needed on the straight wing, NOT needed on
the Warrior (tapered ) wing...

Aileron gap seals are recommended....

With the straight wing, the improvement in the flying quality
of the root sections carries some risk as the tips don't do so well
by comparison.

With the taper aka Warrior wing, Piper "fixed" the outer wing
panels, and they do just fine with the VG's installed..

Gap seals are to increase the roll authority at the lower
speeds capable with the VG's.

The guy makes sence to me... answered all my questions well
and to my satisfaction.Explained why he did the mods the way he did ,
did NOT make any outlandish claims, and outlined the possible
negative issues.

Looks like gap seals for ailerons and stab trim, and the VG's
for us..

New paint and interior 1st.

Dave


On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:28:43 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

: Seems like a lot for a few hundred bucks...maybe worth taking a chance
: on...

: Thanks to all for the thread of info...

: Dave

As I said, my personal experience on three different 160 or 180 hp's
stubby-winged Cherokees is consistent... they help a lot more than one would think at
the low end. Nothing substantial at the high speed end.

One other detail. I believe that AM said that they are NOT approved for stock
wintips. He said some aftermarked tips were necessary... whether it be hoerner style
or droop-tip... doesn't matter. They do the same (although the droop-tips on my bird
look a bit silly. Make it look like the "bat-plane"). Stock tips on the Hershey-bar
cherokees are awful from what he said.

-Cory

--

************************************************* ************************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************* ************************

Dave,

I e-mailed you some interior refurb pictures. Did you get them. If not,
please e-mail me with your correct e-mail address.

Mike

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 23:04:05 -0400, Dave
wrote:

Piper fixed the outer (tapered) portion of the wing, but the inner
portion is "plain old Cherokee" (on a Warrior)

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the response. I'll have to look at a few this weekend, but
thought I remebered the Archer II I flew had a different root
attachment. Kind of like adding another piece of aluminum at a 45
degree angle to cure some of the induced drag issues.

It's late so I may be wrong....as I said I'll have to check.

It is good to hear opinions about VGs and Cherokees though.

z

Hi Mike!

Nope, no get..

Remove the "nuke this" from our header addy, and note that what
appears to be a space before "nuke" is an underscore, hidden by the
underline of the entire address..

That should do it!

Thanks for the send, would love to see the pixs!

An sending you the complete address back channel..

Cheers!

Dave
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 02:05:13 GMT, Mike Spera
wrote:

Dave,

I e-mailed you some interior refurb pictures. Did you get them. If not,
please e-mail me with your correct e-mail address.

Mike