Mandatory Radios

On Feb 6, 7:33*am, "BT" wrote:
JJ
I'll agree... to a point..
Radio's are good..
Radio's fail..
Mandating Radios may lead to a false sense of security.. Train otherwise
Radio gets blocked by another transmission..
Low battery.. you can hear but not transmit (glider).. and you don't know it
I would change "could have been prevented.." to "may have been prevented..."
There is no certainty.

My heart goes out to those involved.. we dodged the bullet on a mid air,
everyone survived.
It was not in the traffic pattern and a radio made no difference because not
being in the pattern, no broadcast were made.
BT



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The FAA and NTSB both acknowledge that "see and be seen" doesn't
always work, especially at higher speeds. In this case both pilots
attention was riveted on making a difficult landing in high winds with
a cross-wind component. Once they turned final each was in the others
blind spot as both aircraft were belly to belly. I believe this
accident would not have happened if either pilot knew the other was
attempting to land at the same time on the same
runway..........................................Al low me to restate my
position on mandatory radios: Four fatalities in region 11 could have
been prevented if the tow pilot and glider pilot had been in radio
contact.
JJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We are pretty much in agreement here BT, but I have just seen too many
accidents that should never have happened:

The G-103 at Minden that had a functioning radio but the battery
probably went dead after a morning of pattern tows. Spoilers came open
on takeoff and the tow pilot called "Spoilers Open"! When he got no
response he gave the signal (rudder wag) which was misunderstood by an
instructor (probably because it was now obvious that a bad situation
was developing). At any rate the sailplane released just after
clearing the wires at the end of 30, made a 180 with spoilers still
full open and flew into the afore mentioned wires! The student was
severly injured and the instructor died in the hospital from
complications of his injuries (pneumonia).

What would have prevented this accident? A com-check before every
takeoff.

Then there was the Genesis flying the first practice day of the
Standard Class Nationals at Minden. The rules called for all takeoffs
to be on 123.3, but the manager hadn't implemented that on the
practice day, so the line crew and tow pilots were on 122.8. The
Genesis driver didn't know this because he didn't go to the briefing.
The Genesis rolled about 100 feet when the elevator fell off because
the pilot hadn't secured the locking mechanism. Both line crew called
"release" on 122.8 but that message wasn't heard on a radio tuned to
123.3. After lifting off the Genesis went into low tow and was stable
enough to hang on and try to get baliout altitude. It is not known if
the pilot ever got the message that he was aviating sans an elevator,
at any rate the glider released at about 1000 feet and almost
completed an outside loop, but not quite!

What would have prevented this accident? A com-check before every
takeoff.

No, BT I think I'll stay with, "Would have prevented".

JJ Sinclair

On Feb 6, 8:33*am, "BT" wrote:
JJ
I'll agree... to a point..
Radio's are good..
Radio's fail..
Mandating Radios may lead to a false sense of security.

IMHO, this is false. Not having a radio receiving other glider
transmissions can lead to the unconscious assumption you are alone.

Hearing a glider transmit leads to a visual search for that glider
which may turn up NORDO gliders in addition to the one you are looking
for. Hearing radio transmissions is a constant reminder that there
are other gliders sharing the air with you. Radios increase
vigilance.

The problem with handhelds is not so much that they are a loose object
since it's not hard to secure them. It's that they don't perform as
well with their "rubber ducky" antenna as a good panel radio
installation.

On a related subject, cheap FRS (Family Radio Service) or GMRS "walkie-
talkies" work really well out to about 3 miles air-to-air. (Yeah, I
know the FCC rules) They're great for airfield ground ops and
"stealth" team flying without cluttering 123.3 & 123.5.

I completely agree with JJ, NO Radio Check, NO Fly, Period.

I personally refuse to fly at Warner Springs because they don't have
VHF air radios in their tow planes.
When thy equipe their tow planes with proper radios instead of the
stealth radios now used, I will consider flying there.

Four fatalities in Region 11 due to no comms is 4 too many.

Wayne

JJ Sinclair wrote:
Mandating Radios may lead to a false sense of security..

BS. A radio gives you additional options, that's all. *Of course* you
bear always in your mind that somebody else's radio may be inop.

On Feb 6, 10:59*am, John Smith wrote:
JJ Sinclair wrote:
Mandating Radios may lead to a false sense of security..

BS. A radio gives you additional options, that's all. *Of course* you
bear always in your mind that somebody else's radio may be inop.

There is simply no excuse for flying without a radio. I don't care if
it is a handheld IF I can hear it. I once complained about the ultra-
lights at our field who did not have radios, after one nearly hit our
towplane with me on tow. They installed radios. I was doing a cross
country in a 152 at a different airport when the electrical system
malfunctioned. I could receive, but not transmit. So I decided to
follow another plane that was in the pattern. Incredibly, they stopped
and parked right on the active runway (the instructor was critiquing
the student's landing)! This forced me to do a go around, following
normal procedures. It was then I noticed I was right over the jumpers
drop zone. It turned out that the jump plane was NOT broadcasting on
the CTAF because they only had one operational radio, which they felt
had to stay on Seattle approach. A call to the FAA "convinced" them
that they COULD broadcast eminent jumps on the CTAF after all.

What this boils down to is that radios are one of the most effective
safety devices we have, right behind the standard Mark IV Eyeball. The
subject accident would have, in all likelihood, been prevented if the
towplane had a radio and used it. This is because both glider and
towplane would have been in radio contact PRIOR to the launch,
eliminating most of the reasons for failed radio communication (not
turned on, on the wrong frequency and the squelch turned up). Multiple
transmissions would have eliminated the remaining one; simultaneous
transmissions.


Tom

On Feb 6, 3:22*pm, 2G wrote:

There is simply no excuse for flying without a radio...

I think that there is no excuse for always/never statements like that.

Thanks, Bob K.

On 2/6/2010 8:20 AM, John Smith wrote:
This leads to the fundamental problem. We can buy handhelds for ~$200,
but a panel mount radio costs ~$1,000. If we could somehow get the price
of panel mount radios down to the handheld price, every glider in the US
would have one.

I suspect this boils down to panel mount radios being TSOed and
handhelds being not.
Is that the real reason, or is it the smaller production volumes?

--
Mike Schumann

On Feb 6, 9:49*am, bildan wrote:

On a related subject, cheap FRS (Family Radio Service) or GMRS "walkie-
talkies" work really well out to about 3 miles air-to-air...

My experience is that FRS radios that say they're good for two miles
on the ground are good for about ten miles air-to-ground or twelve
miles air-to-air.

Wayne wrote,
I personally refuse to fly at Warner Springs because they don't have
VHF air radios in their tow planes.
When thy equipe their tow planes with proper radios instead of the
stealth radios now used, I will consider flying there.

Four fatalities in Region 11 due to no comms is 4 too many.

Wayne

That's the answer Wayne, work with your club or FBO and try to get
them to adopt a NO-COM-CHECK-NO-TOW policy. If they refuse, find
another club or FBO. I lost my best friend in the recent tow plane/
glider mid-air and I have seen the shock, disbelief, heartache,
sadness, financial distress and morning up close and personal. This
sport is selfish enough, but the ultimate sefish act is to remove the
head of a household over something we can and must control.
JJ

On Feb 6, 11:23*am, Free Flight 107 wrote:
I completely agree with JJ, NO Radio Check, NO Fly, Period.

I personally refuse to fly at Warner Springs because they don't have
VHF air radios in their tow planes.
When thy equipe their tow planes with proper radios instead of the
stealth radios now used, I will consider flying there.

Four fatalities in Region 11 due to no comms is 4 too many.

Hi Wayne,

What is a stealth radio?

Mike